Old Town?

[Gregory Messier]

Hi Benson,
That’s verycool, so if I’m reading your analysis right this canoe is 1 of about 87 built in 1910 and I’m assuming much fewer than that still exist.
Greg

 

[dtdcanoes]

Greg
I meant to say the bolt will rotate rendering the nut unable to tighten. And I was wondering if your seat spacers were/are scrolled type as are mine in the 08. Benson would know when they were introduced in the model. And Pratt and Lambert used to make a beautiful Classic Mahogany Stain in their Tonetic wood stain line. It offers a deep rich old Boston furniture look that my wife can't keep her hands off. I have a quart and would spare enough for you if you cannot find it where you are. It is really easy to work with and does not take much to do a 17 foota all in AA mahogany.
Have fun. Dave

 

[Gregory Messier]

Dave,
Yes that was part of the issue is the original steel bolts just had a round head so they would just spin. I’m thinking of using bronze carriage bolts and counter sink them so at least the square shank will bite into the wood. The bow seat didn’t have any spacers, perhaps they were lost or broken over time but the stern seat had screw turned or scrolled spacers. That stain sounds awesome, where are you located?
Greg

 

[dtdcanoes]

Greg,
Tough to tell if that amount of bearing surface on the square would be enough. A little grease on the threads maybe. Yes the bow seat doesn't have drops, and very nice to have those stern pieces. protect them and when you pit them back look hard to see if they are angled at the ends to accommodate the level seat meeting the wale angle otherwise you will misfit the set, sort of.
I am in Rochester, NY. Have fun and do some looking into the stain: 1. Is the new stain the same as the earlier Classic.....? and 2. Is it still available ?
Dave

 

[Benson Gray]

this canoe is 1 of about 87 built in 1910 and I’m assuming much fewer than that still exist.

These are all estimates from a small sample but yes, there were probably less than a hundred canoes like yours built in 1910. A more accurate answer would require manually searching through several thousand build records. The analysis at https://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/13053/ estimates that wooden canoes have a survival rate of about two percent. This is likely to be low due to limited available data but is probably in the correct order of magnitude. The survival rate of AA grade canoes seems to be slightly higher than the other grades. Let me know if this doesn't answer your question.

Benson

 

[Gregory Messier]

Thank you Benson!

 

[Gregory Messier]

Thank you Benson!

 

[Gregory Messier]

Just an update on progress. I have spent time rough sanding off the green paint that had been applied to the mahogany gunwales, decks and seats.

I used a Forstner bit to drill and plug the bolt holes in the thwarts seats and gunwales that had either been worn through or significantly “stretched” over the years. One of the thwarts had been off for years, as it had split a big chunk out of the inwale, so I gently pulled the hull back into shape with ratchet straps before I cut the damaged portion of inwale out setting up to scarf in a new piece.

Next step I removed some old strapping that someone had stapled to the seats with giant electric wire staples, sanded and reassembled the seat frames that had become unglued over the years and reassembled.

Next up is to mill and fit the scarf repair for the inwale and reinstall the thwarts. Then I can flip it over and work on the backside repairs of the cracked ribs, repair the aft stem and some planking repairs. More to follow!

 

[Dave Wermuth]

FWIW I recently completed a 1917 Otca AA and the seat hanger bolts were slotted machine screws, flat on top, not the other type with the little ears, and not carriage bolt style. And they were plugged as normal with mahogany.

 

[Gregory Messier]

FWIW I recently completed a 1917 Otca AA and the seat hanger bolts were slotted machine screws, flat on top, not the other type with the little ears, and not carriage bolt style. And they were plugged as normal with mahogany.

Dave,
Some of the bolts on mine were clearly added later in life as they were just slotted bolts with washers that were surface mounted. A few that appeared original were countersunk and plugged, had flat round heads with no slot or ears.

 

[dtdcanoes]

Greg, My 7 cents here
Wonder why you went to significant woodwork repair before stripping and seeing all defects and getting a good idea of the woods and grain etc. Just asking. The split in the deck is reparable and the wale scarf should go ok. You may want to consider forming it with a form from the other end before installation to not introduce any new stress to the jointand maybe try to match the grain as best you can for wale and deck repair. Mahogany if stained can easily mask a scarf line and other surface defects if one goes old classic tone. You should be a little careful not to get too much excess glue on the joint surface. It can make a match of old and new wood not as easy. I always used temporary thwarts and seat rails during stripping and do the accessories at the same time especially if I use the teak 2-part product to even the different surfaces. And it would seem the sanding instead of stripping would remove all traces of any patina.
Just saw your old bolt. Almost looks hand hammered . This is going to be a very pretty boat.
Dave

 

[Gregory Messier]

Hi Dave,
I made the decision to sand instead of strip for a couple reasons. The previous owner had already sanded the stern deck and part of the gunwales I’m assuming to see if it was the original mahogany. Also I don’t intend to strip the hull as I hope to retain that wonderful dark patina of the original finish and I know that I’m way too awkward with chemical stripper to keep it off the planks and ribs.

That’s a great idea to use the other end to form the scarfed gunwale. I would have never thought of that!

A friend who restores Chris Crafts recommended Interlux Interstain for Mahogany have any of you guys tried it?

 

[MGC]

The Chris Craft/Garwood crowd does love to color the mahagony far more aggressively than we tend to do with canoes. If you think about it, it makes sense. They use miles of wood per boat so getting naturally colored matching wood is virtually impossible. These dense filling stains are the equalizer.
I used the Interlux on a Chris Craft I restored. It looked good but the stain filled the wood to the point that it was hard to appreciate the actual color of the base wood.
I have never felt a need to recolor mahagony on a canoe. Good quality varnish is more than enough to bring out the colors.
I once owned an Old Town that had been restored by what must have been a boat shop. You can see it in my Avitar. They used the Interlux type filler/stain on it. I never like the appearance, possibly because I could tell what they had done.

 

[Gregory Messier]

As a woodworker I’ve always leaned toward leaving the natural finish on wood as I think it’s beautiful without any help from me but am a tad concerned that nice bright natural mahogany might make too much of a contrast against the dark hull. Dave recommended a Pratt and Lambert stain but so far I haven’t been able to find a source for it. I was going to see Joe at Mertons to see if he had anything when I go to get paint and varnish. Any conservative mahogany stain recommendations are appreciated.

 

[Benson Gray]

The Old Town factory would occasionally use a stain to help match mahoganies that were significantly different colors. The centerboard sailing canoe mentioned at http://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/canoe-serial-info.3994/ has this. It looks very muddy to me and I would not recommend it in a restoration.

Benson

 

[Dave Osborn]

I think at some point you may be sorry that you didn’t strip the old varnish firm inside the hull.
If you did strip it there would still be plenty of patina.
You would also get a look at hidden areas that need repair.
Assuming that you plan to sand the interior and add some varnish, I’d caution that there can be issues with adhesion.
I can think of a couple canoes that I worked on where I thought that new varnish over very old varnish would work ok if I scuffed it up for adhesion. The new varnish failed by blistering when the canoes sat in sun.
I’ve had good success varnishing in other cases when there were just two factory coats, but the ones that failed were like yours with seemingly several coats built up.

 

[Gregory Messier]

Dave O…geez everyone that loves canoes seem to be named Dave!

My heart is set on trying to retain that original finish as it took 112 years for it to look that awesome but you have a great point. I don’t want blistering varnish later. Any ideas on a treatment to help adhesion to the older varnish? My original thought was a good wash with TSP, scuff sand with 220, then wipe down with mineral spirits.

 

[Dave Osborn]

A thought came to mind…you might try a liquid deglosser.
Research it.

 

[Michael Grace]

I'll add another vote against filler stains. They just muddy up what would be beautiful wood, taking what would have been clear, beautiful wood grain and making it look like what it is - wood with some kind of blah-looking goo spread over it. Some people may like the look and that's okay; just not me. As others have said, this is especially true for the gorgeous mahogany used on these early Old Towns. Cleaned up and varnished, that's some stunning ly beautiful wood! Even with your sanding, I'll be those rails will really pop when you varnish. If you haven't already, give them a wipe with mineral spirits to get just a hint of what's to come come with varnish. I do sometimes use stains - but not filler stains - and dyes and other chemical treatments to match colors, but I use them sparingly and judiciously.

I also agree with Dave (dtdcanoes) that you'll probably be MUCH happier with a stripped and re-varnished interior. Patina (at least by my definition when restoring wooden canoes) is in the wood, not the old finish. Crusty, age-blackened varnish is just hides the beauty of the aged wood. I have canoes that I leave alone because they are so rare, but if this one were mine I would give it a total refinish. Attached here is a photo showing a freshly cleaned-up hull (a 1916 AA-grade Otca) looking way too bright, but after addition of just the first thinned varnish coat it shows the stunning beautiful richness of that aged white and red cedar. I wish it also showed the transformation of the mahogany - the varnished rails were deep and rich in color, contrasting spectacularly with the cedar colors. This photo was in a previous thread on stripping old finishes:

http://forums.wcha.org/index.php?threads/to-stain-or-not-to-stain.16518/

By the way, the canoe below was stripped, cleaned with TSP, then treated with a high-quality 2-part teak cleaner/bleach (Te-Ka or Snappy Track-Nu; the stuff often found on the shelves of big box stores and some marine stores don't work nearly as well... I know from experience). Note that these "cleaner/bleach" solutions do not contain household bleach (sodium hypochlorite). I once saw an 80-100-year-old canoe treated with household bleach, one that should have had beautiful patina and nice contrast between wood species, but it was all a washed-out blonde. It seemed sadly unfortunate.

 

[Gregory Messier]

With deep respect for you guys’ experience and craft I just don’t want to make this canoe look like new. The results that you are getting looks amazing without a doubt I just really like the aged look of the old varnish. I preserved the old varnish in my 1942 Otca and personally love it. My wife and I buy and sell antique furniture and I hate to see old pieces refinished, just me I guess