Keel 'cup' washers
- Thread starter Howie
- Start date
Howie, several years ago I posted a message about finish washers. I never took the plunge and tried removing the nickel from brass finish washers. In theory it will work relatively easy if indeed the washers are brass. You can find them/different sizes on Amazon.
Amazon.com: 100#10 Flush Type Finishing Washer Nickel Plated Brass : Industrial & Scientific
My original post:
Finish Washers | WCHA Forums
Amazon.com: 100#10 Flush Type Finishing Washer Nickel Plated Brass : Industrial & Scientific
My original post:
Finish Washers | WCHA Forums
pklonowski
Unrepentant Canoeist
You can get a box of 100 brass ones at my local Ace Hardware:
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/nuts-and-bolts/washers/5265640
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/nuts-and-bolts/washers/5265640
David Satter
Wooden Canoe Maniac
https://www.sailrite.com/Grommet-Plain-3-16-00 I use these. Just the top half. Their cheap and they look good . They look really close to original when the screws in them. I think they come 1/4 inch also.
OP
OP
Howie
Wooden Canoe Maniac
Thanks all for the replies... So looks like they no longer make the same keel washers that were used in old canoes? Ah well...
SamB: I was thinking of doing something like what you suggest. But...
Charvey: Those are indeed what I'm looking for... except I want a brass finish. I suppose I could sand off the Nickel finish just at the top - the rest would be covered by the screw head.
Pklonowski: Naah. These aren't what I want - I want all the washer to lie at or below the wood surface.
Dave: I did use something like this for one canoe years ago, but I'm thinking the one you recommended is smaller and might work out better. I've ordered some.
SamB: I was thinking of doing something like what you suggest. But...
Charvey: Those are indeed what I'm looking for... except I want a brass finish. I suppose I could sand off the Nickel finish just at the top - the rest would be covered by the screw head.
Pklonowski: Naah. These aren't what I want - I want all the washer to lie at or below the wood surface.
Dave: I did use something like this for one canoe years ago, but I'm thinking the one you recommended is smaller and might work out better. I've ordered some.
David Satter
Wooden Canoe Maniac
The 3/16 are pretty small. The little stem on the bottom does pull down into the soft cedar. Or tap with a hammer. I just used them for putting on the rubrail from the inside on the #45 design I just finished. Gives it a nice look. Their cheap enough that when I drop one and it goes under the workbench .....maybe I'll just leave it. 
Here is a photo of the cup washer stamp. It makes a copy of the OT cup washers from a flat washer. Insert screw in flat washer and insert in stamp. Give it a whack with a hammer. One at a time, but mostly I am just replacing lost ones, so no big deal.
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
whack
verb
\ ˈ(h)wak \
whacked; whacking; whacks
Definition of whack
(Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a: to strike with a smart or resounding blow
Well, should we use a smart or resounding blow? Or a wicked hard one?
verb
\ ˈ(h)wak \
whacked; whacking; whacks
Definition of whack
(Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a: to strike with a smart or resounding blow
Well, should we use a smart or resounding blow? Or a wicked hard one?
Dave Osborn
LIFE MEMBER
What we are looking for are countersunk flush washers. Rare as hen’s teeth, unless you know how to strip nickel plating.
Several years ago I found some NOS brass flush washers from a piano repair outfit.
Internet searches have come up empty when chasing that avenue.
I make my own for now with finish washers.
Several years ago I found some NOS brass flush washers from a piano repair outfit.
Internet searches have come up empty when chasing that avenue.
I make my own for now with finish washers.
Andy Rosser
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Andy Rosser
Curious about Wooden Canoes
@Howie I just ordered some cup washers off the lymanboat (.com) website under fasteners. They are #8 Brass cup washers! I think they are what we are looking for! I'll let you know. The screws in my boat sit lower in the washer anyway, so perhaps this #8 washer paired with my #6 screw will be just right. I'll post pics when they arrive if you like. I'm not allowed to post links yet, but email (andymanr@gmail.com) if you would like a direct link to what I ordered. Happy building!
OP
OP
Howie
Wooden Canoe Maniac
So thanks to David Satter for the link to 3/16" brass grommets, and to Fitz for the pic of a tool used to shape the outer rim squish flat washers.
The pic above shows what I'm trying to replicate. These 'cup washers' conform to the cone shaped outer sides of the head of a #8 flat head screw. They have a flattened lip at their outer edge that rests against the top of the wood. They serve to effectively increase the outer diameter of the screw's head thereby making it less likely the screw will bury itself into the wood. You'll find there are different sizes and shapes out there depending on the canoe manufacturer's whim. Some have just a cone shape; others also have a flat outer rim that also helps to keep the washer from digging into the wood. They are typically used with keel screws, although you'll sometimes also see them used with screws holding the decks in place.
Here's the grommets I bought. Got like 100 for about $10 with shipping as I recall. Each grommet is made of two parts: the base which has a wider outer edge and post, and a thinner washer. When you squish the two together the 'post' deforms to hold the washer. As they are not ideal as the outer edge will dig into the wood.
Happily I have a retired machinist buddy who is just aching to make stuff for me. Using Fitz's idea he made this 2-part fixture. You simply place the grommet (either the pert with the pose or the washer) onto the fixture with the pin, then place the upper part on the pin so it's against the grommet, then wack it with a hammer. This flattens the outer rim of the grommet. Works great.
The washer part of the grommet should work in all situations. The grommet part with the post will also work if the hole in the wood is wide enough.
And here's what they look like. Note that the screw head is essentially flush to the wood and not sticking way up as with the typical 'finish washer' you see sold today.
The pic above shows what I'm trying to replicate. These 'cup washers' conform to the cone shaped outer sides of the head of a #8 flat head screw. They have a flattened lip at their outer edge that rests against the top of the wood. They serve to effectively increase the outer diameter of the screw's head thereby making it less likely the screw will bury itself into the wood. You'll find there are different sizes and shapes out there depending on the canoe manufacturer's whim. Some have just a cone shape; others also have a flat outer rim that also helps to keep the washer from digging into the wood. They are typically used with keel screws, although you'll sometimes also see them used with screws holding the decks in place.
Here's the grommets I bought. Got like 100 for about $10 with shipping as I recall. Each grommet is made of two parts: the base which has a wider outer edge and post, and a thinner washer. When you squish the two together the 'post' deforms to hold the washer. As they are not ideal as the outer edge will dig into the wood.
Happily I have a retired machinist buddy who is just aching to make stuff for me. Using Fitz's idea he made this 2-part fixture. You simply place the grommet (either the pert with the pose or the washer) onto the fixture with the pin, then place the upper part on the pin so it's against the grommet, then wack it with a hammer. This flattens the outer rim of the grommet. Works great.
The washer part of the grommet should work in all situations. The grommet part with the post will also work if the hole in the wood is wide enough.
And here's what they look like. Note that the screw head is essentially flush to the wood and not sticking way up as with the typical 'finish washer' you see sold today.
Mud Bug
Hand made things are better
Nice. Good to have machine tools in this world. If you run into a thickness problem (the grommets look thinner than the original washers) you probably could find a washer the size you need and form it in your spiffy tool (though I'm sure you've thought of that). Be sure to keep your punch and die oiled. Peanut oil is the old-time die oil. It retains its lubricity under pressure. Plus, since its organic, it doesn't mess with varnishes as badly as petroleum oils do. That's the oil I use in dies for those reasons.
