ash ribs rebound

[Gil Cramer]

I Burnt mine.

 

[pasteljoe]

Thanks for clarifying. There was nothing scientific about the way I straightened the hull. I made a reinforced beam. I placed it over the hull and put screws through the canoe from the inside to pull the wet steamed hull to the beam. My first try did not move the hull enough. I was being far too conservative. I removed the beam, spaced it farther from the boat and did it again, this time pulling the boat beyond where I needed the bottom to be when it dried. I left it like that for about three weeks.
The images that follow are from my first attempt where I was being too careful.
WRT paddling that canoe solo...if you built a 17 1/2 foot hull, it's a lot of canoe. You will need to add weight to the stern, assuming you will paddle from the stern. If you plan to paddle it from the center, you will end up heeling it up a bit so the shape of the bottom won't be as much of a consideration as where you are bracing on the tumblehome.

Thanks for your illustration, it's a good thing to know, and it's a smart way to repair. And effectively, in my case, it could alter the global shape, if the wood moves to the sides.
About the keel, even if will not correct the shape, it will help to keep the way in navigation. And another important detail, the rivers of france are low, and the keel is a plus to protect the hull from stones..

I once made a canoe with Ash ribs and basswood planking. It was long ,long ago. It was a very good learning experience. I learned why native Americans used cedar for both ribs and planking. Finish your canoe if you haven't already, and use it.There is no better teacher than experience.

A great lucky experience for you, Gil. Could you tell me more about the choice of cedar ? Do you think if spruce have the same properties ? As I mentionned earlier, I'm living in France, so the cedar is not really available.
You burnt your ash canoe ? why ??

 

[MGC]

A keel really does not help with navigation. It interferes with it. And WRT protection from rocks, possibly if you hit them perfectly exactly on the keel in such a way that they don't catch and snag your hull. Are you suggesting that a canoe for French waters must be covered with a hull width keel? How is a 3/4 inch wide strip of wood going to protect the entire bottom of the boat. It doesn't.
A properly filled canvased hull does a very good job of sliding over rocks. You might get scratches in the paint or possibly even a small divot in the filler...but the canoe will continue to slide unlike it would if the keel gets hung up on something. If you poke around on this site you will see that some of us have finished the bottom of our hulls with shellac over the filler. https://forums.wcha.org/threads/shellac.13951/
If you have not tried it, it's worth knowing about it. The shellac is extremely slippery in the water, easy to repair and slides over rocks and logs (and beaver dams) better than paint. You might consider this as a finish. It's how many Maine working canoes have been finished. Maine rivers are also known for their granite (sharp) rocks.

By the way, I should add, the argument for or against keels is like a discussion about politics. We have taken sides on the issue. No logc will sway our opinions. There is no right or wrong, only my way.

 

[pasteljoe]

I have no experience about keel but I heard you. Instead of rock, I meant to say the ground. In french river the deep of water is sometimes less than 4".
On the french wood canoes, bilge keels are mounted on all the hull. And the keel contribute to reinforce the bottom of canoe.
Here is an example:
https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/19/74/88/67/tm/forum119.jpg

But no way for me to add this, cos the weight.
I will considerate your "no keel philosophy" in trying to navigate without. And with the time I will feel if I will need or not

About the filler, and varnish, I use the Tonkinois.
On my first canoe, I used multiple coats of Tonkinois on the canvas, then I painted it and applied varnish.

I will read your link. Thank you !

 

[MGC]

Hmm....
I am very surprised that you did not fill the canvas. Canvas filler with it's silica component is what not only fills the canvas but it also gives the canvas a "hardness" and "toughness". You might achieve water tightness with varnish but you cannot achieve a surface that will resist damage.
I would wager that a properly finished (filled, shellacked) hull would outperform a canoe with all of those keels but I have never paddled in French waters so ....
Here's the thing with a keel. You can always add one if you decide you want it. Finish the canoe. Paddle it, then decide. Personally, I do not like to punch holes through a fresh canvas to install a keel. It seems like total compromise of all the work to make a nice watertight hull.

 

[pasteljoe]

"The tonkinois" is a marine varnish, and is it an alternative to the classic filling. Of course I have to mix it with silica, to make an hard shell.
I used that because I didn't find another product, and I wanted to use some natural things. It's a bit expensive so .. but it is really solid.

 

[Gary]

Hi Joe, I don't do this as a profession but as a hobby so there are many here far more knowledgeable than I but I think the second canoe you've taken off the forms is beautiful. After many restorations I've come to understand that these amazing craft are not all alike. I've used ash a number of times as gunwales, and even keels as seen in the photo below. If I were you I'd finish this canoe and enjoy it as it is. You'll adapt quickly to know how best to paddle it which I seem to have to do from one canoe to another anyway. Nice work!
Gary

 

[chris pearson]

Just start over…… Don’t use ash for ribs !!!! If you do, leave them on longer than normal. As Gil said… learning experience. Use appropriate wood that is tried and true, these canoes are made out of these materials for a reason!

 

[pasteljoe]

Hi Joe, I don't do this as a profession but as a hobby so there are many here far more knowledgeable than I but I think the second canoe you've taken off the forms is beautiful. After many restorations I've come to understand that these amazing craft are not all alike. I've used ash a number of times as gunwales, and even keels as seen in the photo below. If I were you I'd finish this canoe and enjoy it as it is. You'll adapt quickly to know how best to paddle it which I seem to have to do from one canoe to another anyway. Nice work!
Gary

Thanks Gary! Your canoe is also amazing !
A bit of work again before paddle with it but yes, I'll have to adapt it !

Just start over…… Don’t use ash for ribs !!!! If you do, leave them on longer than normal. As Gil said… learning experience. Use appropriate wood that is tried and true, these canoes are made out of these materials for a reason!

I let it on the form for approx 2 months...
Appropriate wood will be used on the third. If I make a third of course

 

[Gil Cramer]

The ash ribs rounded the hull so that the canoe would just as soon be upside down as right side up. No matter what: that is a serious handicap. It was pretty, but paddling it was a real challenge. Sometimes, it is best to " cut your losses", I did not want to take the responsibility for the stability this canoe. It burnt well.

 

[Greg Nolan]

The dimensions of the keels on both our 16' 1922 Old Town "Ideal" and our 15' 1931 Old Town "50 Pound" canoes are basically the same as the dimensions I have posted earlier, with only very minor variations, probably due to wear and tear, or some smoothing/sanding during restoration. I would think anything near those dimensions would be satisfactory should you decide to install a keel.

But that said, I don't think I would install a keel. And I don't think I would try to change the shape of your hull by wetting and heating part of it.
A number of thoughts, in no particular order:

** On his website, Rollin Thurlow, the designer of the Atkinson Traveler, describes the canoe as having "modest rocker" that allows for quick maneuvering, while its length provides for straight tracking. He does not give the amount of designed rocker, but your 13/16" of rocker strikes me as fairly modest on a 17 ½' canoe. Both the designed length and beam (35 5/8") are quite large for a solo canoe, so I would be very surprised if you would find its maneuvering excessively quick. A canoe of that size without any rocker would probably be a beast to turn by a solo paddler. Maybe you are making a mountain out of a designed mole hill?

** How fast did you get your steamed ribs bent in place after removing them from the steam? Wood as thin as a canoe rib (3/16" - 5/16") cools very quickly, in a minute or less, to a temperature that, while still hot, is below optimum for effective bending. I am currently building a skin-on-frame canoe, with ¼" thick white oak ribs. White oak is very flexible and I could nearly bend it enough to fit into the hull even without steaming. I found that while I could get the steamed ¼" thick ribs into the canoe myself, I could not do it quickly enough for the rib to stay hot enough for the heat to have good effect. On a few test bends, after fastening the rib to one gunwale then moving fast to the other side to complete the bend and fasten it to the other gunwale while still apparently hot, the rib ended up with substantial spring back after drying and cooling. When I actually bent them in place very rapidly with the help of a friend, we got them bent in place and fastened down much faster, and when the ribs cooled and dried a short time later (no need to wait weeks), there was very little spring back. The rib begins cooling the instant it is out of the steam box – the wet surface of the ribs evaporated and became dry before I got them just a few feet to the canoe, indicating just how fast cooling was taking place.

The optimum temperature for bending wood is 200º -212 º F (93 º-100º C). Even a litle below that range and you will not get a good bend with minimal spring back. Very thin ribs such as yours (3/16") will cool all the way through to a point below this small range extremely quickly. Even though too hot to handle bare-handed, and seemingly quite hot, 180º - 185 º F is not hot enough to give an optimal good bend with minimal spring back.

** If you do decide to wet and heat the raised center of some of the ribs to flatten them, the ends of the ribs will almost certainly spread farther apart, increasing the beam of the canoe, because the rib's curve at the turn of the bilge will not change. If you then pull the rib ends back together to maintain the original width of the canoe, you will push the newly flat center of the rib back into a bulge – not as great as before, but nonetheless, the center will still tend to bulge. For solo paddling, tumble home is generally considered a god thing, though not absolutely necessary, and making the beam wider at the middle of the gunwales is not desirable. Especially on a large boat to be paddled solo, you do not want to make it any beamier at the gunwales than it already is.

If I were going to soak and heat the ribs to flatten the center, I think I would first restrain the ends of the ribs, and would then wet and heat not just the flat center of the ribs, but also the curves at the turn of the bilge, all to keep things from spreading and making solo paddling more difficult.

I suspect that spreading of the center ribs may have caused the banana shape of your earlier canoe – as the gunwales were spread in the center by the ribs springing back after bending, they pulled the bow and stern up. If that canoe was bult on the same form shown in your pictures, I can't think what else would have caused the deformation.

** 4" is pretty thin water, even for a canoe. I would probably not have a keel, and would probably finish the canoe bottom with shellac, especially if there are even a few rocks.

We have a Model 1889 canoe built by Jerry Stelmok of Island Falls Canoes with a shellacked bottom and have been pleased with it.
pic

A shellac bottom is easy to finish/refinish. After four years of ordinary use, I lightly sanded some minor areas of wear and scratches, gave it a good wipe-down with alcohol, then applied two coats of Zinsser Bulls Eye Amber shellac – the same stuff Jerry uses. All done in less than a day, including masking off the bottom and the drying after alcohol wiping and two brushed-on coats. Professional Maine guides often have their canoe bottoms shellacked, and having taken trips with a couple of the best who do so, I have seen that a shellac finish is very durable even in the hard use sometimes given to their canoes.

** Poling a canoe is one of the best ways to travel in thin water – while standing, you can better see underwater obstructions, and if you do hang up on anything, you can usually free your canoe by moving in the canoe and shifting your weight to lift the canoe hull free of the obstruction. In water only 4" deep, you can get very little of a paddle blade in the water. Poling provides very effective propulsive and turning force, especially in shallow water -- better than paddling with only a couple of inches of blade in the water. When travellng solo, you might find poling more fun than paddling.

** While the Atkinson Traveler was not designed for solo paddling, it can be done. Given that you apparently will be paddling solo a fair amount of the time, and in shallow water, I think I would not add a keel. And if the dimensions of your boat come close to that of Rollin's design, I don't think I would fool around with the amount of rocker you apparently have. Given your intended use, a little extra rocker, if that is what you have, is probably a good thing.

** Mike Cyr knows a lot about canoes and canoe building. but do take note when he says "the argument for or against keels is like a discussion about politics. We have taken sides on the issue. No logic will sway our opinions. There is no right or wrong, only my way." He has warned you, so beware of some of his philosophy (a/k/a hide-bound opinions), which can be, at best, quite ridiculous -- "A keel really does not help with navigation. It interferes with it." This is just propaganda from a diehard anti-keel zealot. And further, not all of us have "taken sides" on the issue. I'm not sure who his "we" are, but as for my wife and I, WE have two canoes with keels, and two without, and WE like them all.

Keels do not interfere with navigation – keels help a bit when you want to go straight, and do not much get in the way when you want to turn.

I would not recommend our "Ideal" for free style paddling, just as I would not recommend a 17 ½' canoe with a 35 5/8" beam for solo paddling. And I would not recommend any canoe with a keel for paddling streams only 4" deep. But one of the good things about most canoes is that they are adaptable for uses beyond their design use.

* * *
I think your canoe actually looks pretty good as it is. If it were mine, I think I would not take the trouble to attempt changes. I suspect it will perform quite nicely as is.

 

[pasteljoe]

What a huge response full of details ! thanks so much Greg !

But that said, I don't think I would install a keel. And I don't think I would try to change the shape of your hull by wetting and heating part of it.

After reflexion, I will not install a keel for the moment. First I will try without, and if I feel that the canoe needs it, I will add it. And I let the shape as it is. In fact, before having written this thread, I was already tried to fix it. I put the canoe in my living room, on a flat ground, I added some books to the front and back for the weight, and I wetted and heated the ribs, and let the canoe for 2 days in this position. I managed to recover the original shape, but after 3 days, I lost it again. maybe it was not completely dry. But I could not wait 2 weeks with a 17' canoe in my house

On his website, Rollin Thurlow, the designer of the Atkinson Traveler, describes the canoe as having "modest rocker" that allows for quick maneuvering, while its length provides for straight tracking. He does not give the amount of designed rocker, but your 13/16" of rocker strikes me as fairly modest on a 17 ½' canoe. Both the designed length and beam (35 5/8") are quite large for a solo canoe, so I would be very surprised if you would find its maneuvering excessively quick. A canoe of that size without any rocker would probably be a beast to turn by a solo paddler. Maybe you are making a mountain out of a designed mole hill?

After built the first canoe, which the rocker was so huge, I was obssessed by this curve rebound on the second. So, even if it was only 13/16 rebound for this time, I was worried that I wouldn't be able to fix it and didn't understand why the wood was moved...

How fast did you get your steamed ribs bent in place after removing them from the steam? Wood as thin as a canoe rib (3/16" - 5/16") cools very quickly, in a minute or less, to a temperature that, while still hot, is below optimum for effective bending. I am currently building a skin-on-frame canoe, with ¼" thick white oak ribs. White oak is very flexible and I could nearly bend it enough to fit into the hull even without steaming. I found that while I could get the steamed ¼" thick ribs into the canoe myself, I could not do it quickly enough for the rib to stay hot enough for the heat to have good effect. On a few test bends, after fastening the rib to one gunwale then moving fast to the other side to complete the bend and fasten it to the other gunwale while still apparently hot, the rib ended up with substantial spring back after drying and cooling. When I actually bent them in place very rapidly with the help of a friend, we got them bent in place and fastened down much faster, and when the ribs cooled and dried a short time later (no need to wait weeks), there was very little spring back. The rib begins cooling the instant it is out of the steam box – the wet surface of the ribs evaporated and became dry before I got them just a few feet to the canoe, indicating just how fast cooling was taking place

I think you're right, it's probably one of the reasons. Even if we are two for this job, the wet surface evaporated really quickly. I think that on average, between taking it out of the steam box and applying it, about 10 to 15 seconds passed. We was in winter also, in outdoor. It's an important point that I hadn't considered. But it's hard to do faster...

I suspect that spreading of the center ribs may have caused the banana shape of your earlier canoe – as the gunwales were spread in the center by the ribs springing back after bending, they pulled the bow and stern up. If that canoe was bult on the same form shown in your pictures, I can't think what else would have caused the deformation.

The first canoe is from another plans, it was a flat canoe, a bit shorter, designed by a french naval architect, in 1940 (François Sergent). It's from his recommendations I used ash for the ribs. As the bottom is flat, the rebound problem was more important. And as I was a beginner, it never occurred to me that the center of the canoe would rise. In my ignorance, I didn't properly secure the ribs to the mold or stretch them enough. I only realized this when I put the canoe in the water. It's because the canoe was unusable that I decided to make a twice. And I found the Jerry Stelmok's book, with the Atkinson Traveller plan.

** 4" is pretty thin water, even for a canoe. I would probably not have a keel, and would probably finish the canoe bottom with shellac, especially if there are even a few rocks.

I just learned that we can apply shellac on canoes. Until now, I just used it for the handbar of my bike . I will search of it, but it appears that product is not during in time ? you have to re-apply every year ? Do you apply it after paint ?
I saw two types of shellac (I'm in France, so I have different a access to the products). A no-waxed shellac, and waxed shellac. Which is the good ? The shellac for my bike was in glitters, liquified in alcohol.

We have a Model 1889 canoe built by Jerry Stelmok of Island Falls Canoes with a shellacked bottom and have been pleased with it.

such a beauty !

While the Atkinson Traveler was not designed for solo paddling, it can be done. Given that you apparently will be paddling solo a fair amount of the time, and in shallow water, I think I would not add a keel. And if the dimensions of your boat come close to that of Rollin's design, I don't think I would fool around with the amount of rocker you apparently have. Given your intended use, a little extra rocker, if that is what you have, is probably a good thing.

I wanted a multi-usage canoe. Not only for solo, not only for long travels. At the base, it's to work the wood, and to discover an old tradition. From this base, my desires turns on a french travel on the Loire. And I would begin with a friend for a couple of days, with all equipments, and make the rest of the travel alone. So maybe this canoe, with a little extra rocker, will be perfect ? will see.
anyway, for the moment it's the drought... The Loire has turned into a river of stones..


Thank you again Greg, for all these notes that have enlightened me a lot. You are of great help to me ! have a good day!

 

[MGC]

A smile and wink.... emoticons shared again to add the context that was deliberately discarded.
It is interesting that comments so clearly made tongue in cheek would elicit personalized comments from an expert whose resume includes painting two canoes, shellacking the bottom of one, paddling experience including a guided tour of a heavily trafficked waterway and laps around St. Regis pond. LMAO

 

[Mud Bug]

I would love to paddle your crooked canoe and see how it handles. On my very first whitewater experience I took my Yankee over something just a wee bit too much for it. (!) We went over and down just fine, but the bow didn't seem to know not to keep going down, so at the end of the down part it just kept going down and under, submerging my newly found wife. I thought at the time if I'd had a curved canoe that knew when to turn up again, my girl might not have screamed so much or stayed away from my canoe for so long after. (That's it--blame something else!) So don't feel bad about that really neat shape. I bet it maneuvers wonderfully too.

Sorry to be no help with your bendy problem. I sure admire what you're doing though. Well beyond my skills.

 

[pasteljoe]

A smile and wink.... emoticons shared again to add the context that was deliberately discarded.
It is interesting that comments so clearly made tongue in cheek would elicit personalized comments from an expert whose resume includes painting two canoes, shellacking the bottom of one, paddling experience including a guided tour of a heavily trafficked waterway and laps around St. Regis pond. LMAO

Sorry, I didn't understand... Emoticons are forbidden?

I would love to paddle your crooked canoe and see how it handles. On my very first whitewater experience I took my Yankee over something just a wee bit too much for it. (!) We went over and down just fine, but the bow didn't seem to know not to keep going down, so at the end of the down part it just kept going down and under, submerging my newly found wife. I thought at the time if I'd had a curved canoe that knew when to turn up again, my girl might not have screamed so much or stayed away from my canoe for so long after. (That's it--blame something else!) So don't feel bad about that really neat shape. I bet it maneuvers wonderfully too.

Sorry to be no help with your bendy problem. I sure admire what you're doing though. Well beyond my skills.

Oh maybe it will great in whitewater! I never tested, I'm not familiar with that.... but on flat waters, a little bit of wind and you turn around..
And no whitewaters in my close country..

 

[Etienne-Henri]

Evening Joe,

Canoes built with ash were pretty common in France from the 1930's to the 1960's. A canoe of mine was full made of ash (and canvas) in the early 1960's and still hold its shape well. It is very very french : flat bottom, full entries, rocker, keels and keels and keels. Please see this post (I am not referring to the red Canadian, but the little blue one) :
https://forums.wcha.org/threads/is-this-a-peterborough.18140/post-94112

Ash is heavy and sensible to rot, but there is no reason why you couldn't be successful with it. I would consider using ash for the planking as well, as I suspect a stronger planking would hold or counteract the pressure of the ribs tending to flatten (hope you understand what I mean). Also take care of how it was sawn and dried ...

You can source some imported red cedar in France, and you can as well find some different species of cedar initially grown in France. There is still some cedar available in sawmills here and there, mainly from the great storm of december 1999.

Now, I have great respect for François Sergent, but his book about canvas canoe building is quite coarse - he never built any himself - and I would be more confident starting with Rollin Thurlow books and videos !
Oh, and start with Rollin Thurlow's large scale plans and table to built the form : do not try to sort out full scale plans from a print in a book. That would be way too approximative.

Keep going !
Etienne-Henri

 

[samb]

You can source some imported red cedar in France, and you can as well find some different species of cedar initially grown in France. There is still some cedar available in sawmills here and there, mainly from the great storm of december 1999.

UK grown red cedar is terrible stuff compared to the imported across the Atlantic cedar. I think it grows to fast so there aren't many rings compared to North American stuff. I imagine that French grown is similar. If you can get imported I'd go for that every time even though it will be more expensive. White cedar is impossible to get here; the only white cedar I've seen in the UK is canoe shaped - either made in north America or privately imported at immense cost to make a canoe

Sam

 

[Benson Gray]

Pages 148 to 150 of the document at the link below has a lot more information about the cedar used by the Old Town canoe company in the 1920s. The short summary is that the best cedar for canoes came from Canada at that time and they were using several hundred thousand feet per year.

Benson

Tariff Act of 1929

www.google.com

 

[Etienne-Henri]

UK grown red cedar is terrible stuff compared to the imported across the Atlantic cedar. I think it grows to fast so there aren't many rings compared to North American stuff. I imagine that French grown is similar. If you can get imported I'd go for that every time even though it will be more expensive. White cedar is impossible to get here; the only white cedar I've seen in the UK is canoe shaped - either made in north America or privately imported at immense cost to make a canoe

Sam

Evening Sam, yes I totally agree about poor quality French grown cedar ... thuja plicata that is. But you can source some interesting juniperus, grown in the Barcelonette area (southern Alps). At least, I had the chance to find some a few years ago for a client of mine. To my experience, imported red cedar is inconsistent in terms of quality. Or the best quality cannot be obtained in long planks. But I have not tried to source any for a few years.

 

[Etienne-Henri]

Joe,
Did you make your ribs out of green ash as you did for your stems ?
Thread 'Bending a stem with green wood (ash)'
https://forums.wcha.org/threads/bending-a-stem-with-green-wood-ash.18617/
Etienne