Red vs. White Cedar

[ed4353]

With the scarcity of clear vertical grain white cedar, is there a reason why I can't use CVG Western Red cedar (or something else), for ribs and planking? Or, can I use white flat grain cedar for the ribs, and red cvg for the planks? I know I should use CVG white for pretty much everything except the ribs near the ends, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, my world is far from perfect, so I,m looking at compromises without sinking my boat.
How does WRC compare to white for bending and expansion?

Thank you for your time.
Ed

 

[mccloud]

White cedar will bend much better than WRC, which is why a whole lot of canoes have been built with white cedar ribs and wrc planking. In my limited experience, dealing with kiln dried, tight grained wrc for planking, wetting the wood and pre-drilling tack holes, I still get cracking. Of course a lot have canoes have been built using only white cedar. From what I have read, bending red cedar for ribs is difficult. Tom McCloud

 

[ed4353]

Thank you for your reply. I agree that white cedar is the preferred wood, but impossible to find. Since that is the case, can flat grain white cedar be used without too much concern for the different expansion characteristics of flat vs. vertical grain? I can get flat-sawn white cedar up to my eyeballs, but VCG is rare.
What do most people use? VCG or flat sawn? Am I making too much of this? Should I just use the flat grain and be happy? Hot water and an iron will coax bends around the bilges, or narrower planks in that region if needed.
My obsessiveness is killing me.....

Thank you.
ecj

 

[Jim_in_No.MN]

Thank you for your reply. I agree that white cedar is the preferred wood, but impossible to find. Since that is the case, can flat grain white cedar be used without too much concern for the different expansion characteristics of flat vs. vertical grain? I can get flat-sawn white cedar up to my eyeballs, but VCG is rare.
What do most people use? VCG or flat sawn? Am I making too much of this? Should I just use the flat grain and be happy? Hot water and an iron will coax bends around the bilges, or narrower planks in that region if needed.
My obsessiveness is killing me.....

Thank you.
ecj

Flat sawn clear white cedar works fine for rib material. It bends well when steamed and also when using the tea kettle and towel method on small jobs. It isn't prone to splitting at the gunwales when nailed as vertical grained white cedar can be. For planking I use vertical grained cedar - white cedar is preferable, but I have used red cedar. I found some nice lengths of old red cedar bevel siding at a Habitat for Humanity Restore that I resawed for planking. It was all vertical grained, with 20-30 rings per inch. Pre-drilling and soaking in water helped to reduce splitting, but I still had some splits.

Hope this helps!

 

[Treewater]

I'm working on a WT Bush wide board canoe. The above reply about getting cedar siding at Habitat For Humanity is right on. I see Butternut is going to disapear like Elm. Vanishing wood is still out there but mostly in houses that will get torn down and hauled to the dump. Since building wreckers pay dump fees by the ton they are happy (for no liability) if someone else will haul off the debris. I've got thousands of board feet of old growth fir that the demolition people "left" overnight and I agreed to make it disappear by morning. There is about 10,000 board feet in every old house. That's a lot of canoes if you sort out the right wood.

 

[dogbrain]

I have used quarter sawn / air dried WRC for replacement ribs and planking. Many canoes have been built with WRC planking. Old Town switched to WRC planking early on, that's a lot of canoes, so no problem there. As others have said, the WRC doesn't bend as easily as WC but seems to do OK. You'll have more breakage, so account for that. WRC can be quite variable in color and darkness. I found WRC was a great match for aged WC replacement ribs in a couple restorations, with no need for any stain. After varnish it's hard to tell the difference.

Mark