Possible new project: choosing between two boats?

[JimT]

The answers to these questions depend on the boat and what you're trying to do. Understand how the boat is constructed, and trust your judgement as you make a game plan. Just don't take it too far apart or you'll end up with a jigsaw puzzle that you may never get back together. Remember that the ribs are steam-bent, and the planking is under some (small) amount of tension, so if you take too much off at once, the hull will begin to relax and spread out over time. That's not good. As you have the boat now, I'd want to be working quickly since you've so much taken out of it. The stringers that support the seats, for example, give a lot of support to your hull, and the seats themselves hold the hull together laterally. All of these are now out of the boat. If you remove the knees and the transom, be sure you've got some bracing to hold everything together or you'll shortly find the boat in a very sad state. Alternatively, get the hull stripped and re-varnished (still best to have some bracing while doing this), and re-install the seat-supporting stringers and the seats before any transom removal. With all of this including the transom, you must decide based on the condition of this particular boat whether it needs more or less tear-down. It's hard to judge these things without seeing it in person. In any case, the more you remove, the more you risk causing damage in the process and the more you have to put back together.

Unless your keelson is damaged, I can't imagine a reason to remove it. "Cleaning up" can certainly be done with it in place, just as you're doing with the ribs and planking.

There may be some salvage sources of mahogany and other woods near you. Surely you're not too far from a good lumber supplier. Try woodfinder.com as a locator. You can use new mahogany and stain, dye or chemically treat it to match the old wood. Another option would be to go to a flea market, antique mall or similar and look for old mahogany pieces that you can scavenge from.

It may have already been said, but one of the best sources for information is the outstanding book The Wood and Canvas Canoe by Jerry Stelmok and Rollin Thurlow, available here:

http://wcha.org/store/wood-canvas-c...tory-construction-restoration-and-maintenance

At $24, this excellent book is a bargain and a must-have for anyone building or restoring wooden canoes and similar boats. There are several other very helpful guides as well, the most recently published here:

http://wcha.org/content/old-canoe-how-restore-your-wood-canvas-canoe

Hope this helps,
Michael

Michael,
thanks so much for such a detailed response. I appreciate the fact that I've removed much of the bracing that gives the boat its structure, and the advice to move quickly on the interior stripping is really what I needed to hear. I will do that and then as you suggest temporarily reinstall the stringers and seats before doing anything about the transom.

And thanks again for the reminder about the Stelmok/Thurlow book, I have that and Mike Elliot's restoration book as well. And my April 2016 issue of Wooden Canoe just showed up yesterday--wish I had had that in hand before taking the first sponson off the other day!! your article was great.

Anyway, at this point I'm concentrating on stripping the paint and varnish from the inside.
Jim

p.s. okay, one other quick how-to question. Anyone have any tips for how to pry the brass finish washers out of the sponson screw holes in the ribs without mucking them up too much? anyone adapt any kind of tool for the purpose? some of them are really stuck in there. thanks again

 

[MGC]

Try a spring hook to pull the washers up. It will fit into the hole under the washer. Lifting from the middle prevents wood damage.

 

[JimT]

Slowly making progress. Stripping the paint is certainly a time-consuming job. if anyone's got any tips for getting into the nooks and crannies, along the rib bevels, etc. etc., without damaging the wood, I'm all ears. couple of pics:



Starting to look ahead to making actual repairs, and got a small order of rough cut wood for planking and pre-cut ribs from Rollin Thurlow this week. Several of the ribs will need replacing, started today with the most obviously broken/disarticulated one. My question is how much damage to the planking can the boat sustain? I was pretty gentle prying up the rib after grinding down the clinched ends inside the boat, but some of the nails pulled through and splintered the planking underneath. a couple more pics, hopefully the last one shows the splintering.



Last question. Earlier I had asked about removing the keelson, I appreciated the responses that advised not to do that unless necessary. But in scraping the paint away, I suspect the entire middle section of the keelson is a replacement, and the wood looks like just a basic doug fir 2x4 half-lapped and butted to the original mahogany.

Would it be appropriate/desirable/A Good Thing to pull that piece of wood out of there (at some point in the process) and replace with a better-shaped piece of mahogany to match the stem and stern? I guess the real question is what should I look out for when I do that? I think I've located a good source for South American mahogany, so it shouldn't be a problem getting the material. When in the process should I do this replacement? and are there tricks or pitfalls to be aware of? a couple more pics:



again, thanks for the ongoing advice and tips,
Jim

 

[Dave Osborn]

I can see why you would want to remove the keelson, if for no other reason than to clean up the crud.
The problem with removing it is that you will end up with a real floppy hull, because the ribs are not full length. Ribs from each side terminate under the keelson and hold the whole thing together.
I’ve done it with no problems, but you have to handle the hull carefully. Consider putting seats back in or temporary seats/bracing to help hold it together. Handle it carefully as you turn it over. Oops, your seat rails are removed. In that case clamp some cross braces from gunwale to gunwale in about 4 different spots.. That should add som rigidly.
The other thing that is a pain I’d that the keelson is screwed through the rib and into the keelson. That means that you’ll need to remove the planking that hides those screws. Not a big deal...just more time. The bright side is that you will get to clean all of the crud out from under those planks and the keelson.

I have only a couple tips as far as stripping goes... the first is to find a professional furniture stripper that will do it for you. Luckily for me, I did. I have 6 canoes ready to go to him soon. He can do 3 a day. It is expensive, but so is steel wool and gallons of stripper. For me as a full time restorer it is well worth the cost. BUT, that not gonna help you..

I would suggest using your imagination and make some tools that can get into those specific spots that are hard to clean out. I’ve ground up church key can openers to fit certain places as well as putty knives and pull type scrapers.
The other thing, IMHO, you get what you pay for when it comes to varnish, paint, and STRIPPER. Get the most caustic, nasty, expensive stripper that you can.
Keep us posted.
Dave

 

[Craig Johnson]

Here is an old thread that shows a tool I use when removing ribs.
http://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/removing-ribs.5448/
Once the clinched ends are nipped off you can easily push the tacks back out and then check the outside to make sure you didn't miss any before pulling on the rib.

 

[JimT]

I can see why you would want to remove the keelson, if for no other reason than to clean up the crud.
The problem with removing it is that you will end up with a real floppy hull, because the ribs are not full length. Ribs from each side terminate under the keelson and hold the whole thing together.
I’ve done it with no problems, but you have to handle the hull carefully. Consider putting seats back in or temporary seats/bracing to help hold it together. Handle it carefully as you turn it over. Oops, your seat rails are removed. In that case clamp some cross braces from gunwale to gunwale in about 4 different spots.. That should add som rigidly.
The other thing that is a pain I’d that the keelson is screwed through the rib and into the keelson. That means that you’ll need to remove the planking that hides those screws. Not a big deal...just more time. The bright side is that you will get to clean all of the crud out from under those planks and the keelson.

I have only a couple tips as far as stripping goes... the first is to find a professional furniture stripper that will do it for you. Luckily for me, I did. I have 6 canoes ready to go to him soon. He can do 3 a day. It is expensive, but so is steel wool and gallons of stripper. For me as a full time restorer it is well worth the cost. BUT, that not gonna help you..

I would suggest using your imagination and make some tools that can get into those specific spots that are hard to clean out. I’ve ground up church key can openers to fit certain places as well as putty knives and pull type scrapers.
The other thing, IMHO, you get what you pay for when it comes to varnish, paint, and STRIPPER. Get the most caustic, nasty, expensive stripper that you can.
Keep us posted.
Dave

thanks Dave, this is very helpful. I'll have to think through the timing of removing the keelson, maybe that even waits until I finish the bulk of the paint scraping and rib repairs so I can tack the seat rails back in to keep things tight. Also appreciate the need to get creative with scrapers, I used to have a set of small scrapers for scraping mouldings, windows, interior woodwork etc. but for the life of me can't find them. Haven't seen anything in hardware stores that even come close.

Paint stripper-wise, I bought out the last of the local supply of Zip Strip, but some of this paint is surprisingly resistant to being persuaded to leave.

Here is an old thread that shows a tool I use when removing ribs.
http://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/removing-ribs.5448/
Once the clinched ends are nipped off you can easily push the tacks back out and then check the outside to make sure you didn't miss any before pulling on the rib.

this is a great suggestion. I was surprised when I looked at the back of the rib I removed at how many tacks I had missed. Not all of the clenched nails were visible from the inside, I may try a plug cutter to get at the visible ones and do a more thorough grinding down of the wood to get the rest of them on the next rib I remove. But this plug cutter looks like it would be a big help.

 

[JimT]

Started attacking the resin on the outside with a heat gun, the good news is that it comes off like butter. Bad news is I'm red-green deficient color blind, so seeing the specks of green against the brown of the varnished wood is a bit of a trick. one side is done:



I hate to keep asking what are likely dumb questions, and I've done some searching . . . but they clearly fiberglassed under the keel and then reattached the keel. I'm guessing the keel is held on by the screws that are visible on the keelson? or are there a second set of keel screws under the keelson that I need to get at? which would be another good argument for unscrewing the keelson sooner rather than later. Or I could loosen those screws, pry out the fiberglass, and retighten to keep the keel on until it's time to canvas. Trying to be mindful of the need to keep the boat's framing supported/stiffened as much as possible. Thoughts?



thanks again.
Jim

 

[Dave Osborn]

Jim,
You are correct that most of the keel screws are the ones you see on the keelson. There will likely be a couple on the bow end and stern end that go from the keel into the keelson and stem.
Certainly you will be making a new keel unless it is in much better shape that what in seeing. Take it off and remove the glass. Keep the old keel as a template for a new one.
If were you, I would clean the hull inside and outside as good as you can up to the keelson, leaving the keelson in for support to the hull.
After all is clean, remove the keelson by removing the center two planks and accessing the screws that go from the ribs into the keelson. If you can remove those planks without damaging them they can be cleaned much easier off the boat than on the boat. If you do damage them, put in new ones....no grunge removal needed.

 

[JimT]

Jim,
You are correct that most of the keel screws are the ones you see on the keelson. There will likely be a couple on the bow end and stern end that go from the keel into the keelson and stem.
Certainly you will be making a new keel unless it is in much better shape that what in seeing. Take it off and remove the glass. Keep the old keel as a template for a new one.
If were you, I would clean the hull inside and outside as good as you can up to the keelson, leaving the keelson in for support to the hull.
After all is clean, remove the keelson by removing the center two planks and accessing the screws that go from the ribs into the keelson. If you can remove those planks without damaging them they can be cleaned much easier off the boat than on the boat. If you do damage them, put in new ones....no grunge removal needed.

Dave, thanks so much, this is exactly the step-by-step advice I was looking for. This sounds like a plan.

Taking advantage of this cool, cloudy, and dry weather between storms today and finished scraping the resin off the other side. The outer stem also came off in pieces, had my first experience with steel screws so had to chop into the wood to pull the screws out with vise grips. All in all the inner stem looks like it's in good shape, there's one spot right about or just below the waterline where the bow took one too many hits I suspect and the wood is kind of chewed up . . . also where the steel screws rusted in place. Would it work in that spot to get by with some wood hardener and perhaps some wood filler?

couple more pics:



appreciate the continued advice and encouragement.
Jim

 

[Michael Grace]

Screw extractors are worth their weight in gold. The really work, and they reduce the amount of damage to the wood surrounding the screw. Two kinds are available. One type requires a hole to be drilled in the center of the screw, then the solid extractor is run into that hole to reverse the screw out. The other type drills itself into the wood surrounding the screw, eventually getting a grip on the screw shaft, backing it out. I have both types and use whichever is best in a given situation. They are SO helpful. The first type (center-type) is better works better when the screw head is intact and for larger screw shafts; the smaller ones of this set require care because they can break fairly easily. The second (surround-type) is better when the screw head has broken off or can be removed - they work best by grabbing onto the screw's shaft. With both types, slow and steady is best for extraction.

https://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Indust...19&hvtargid=pla-434200247990&psc=1&pldnSite=1


https://www.amazon.com/UNSCREW-UMS-...REW-UMS&pldnSite=1&qid=1568400432&s=hi&sr=1-2

 

[Dave Osborn]

Here is what I’ve been using on stubborn steel screws recently on a Rhinelander Boat Company y-stern row boat.
They come in different sizes from Woodcraft. They are very thin walled and can crack in a drill chuck unless you have a tight fitting metal plug in the chucked end. Core out the screw and plug it with dowel. So simple.
I like the one Michael showed. Looks like thicker walled.

 

[JimT]

Screw extractors are worth their weight in gold. The really work, and they reduce the amount of damage to the wood surrounding the screw. Two kinds are available. One type requires a hole to be drilled in the center of the screw, then the solid extractor is run into that hole to reverse the screw out. The other type drills itself into the wood surrounding the screw, eventually getting a grip on the screw shaft, backing it out. I have both types and use whichever is best in a given situation. They are SO helpful. The first type (center-type) is better works better when the screw head is intact and for larger screw shafts; the smaller ones of this set require care because they can break fairly easily. The second (surround-type) is better when the screw head has broken off or can be removed - they work best by grabbing onto the screw's shaft. With both types, slow and steady is best for extraction.

https://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Indust...19&hvtargid=pla-434200247990&psc=1&pldnSite=1
View attachment 43300

https://www.amazon.com/UNSCREW-UMS-...REW-UMS&pldnSite=1&qid=1568400432&s=hi&sr=1-2
View attachment 43301

I haven't had much luck with the first kind of extractors that you show, I haven't been able to get the extractor to grab hold and bite, and several times simply ended drilling down into the screw (brass screws) with a drill bit which worked out okay. Maybe they'd work better with steel screws? I'll have to try the second one here and maybe the one that Dave uses, looks like a mini-hole saw.

 

[Dave Osborn]

Yes, mini hole saw. Works good. Be sure to plug the chuck end with a tight fitting piece of metal or it will crush.
Sometimes you can just drill off the head and you can pull it through. When you drill out screws it’s important to start with a very small pilot hole in the center of the slot. I start with a drill that fits into the slot. If you start it close to center of the slot as you increase your drill size it will stay centered.
If you start with a drill bigger than the slot, you’ll likely drill off center and have issues.

 

[Michael Grace]

Yes, try the "Unscrew-Ums". In my experience they work much better for the smaller fasteners that we find in small wooden boats. And try the Unscrew-Um brand. As Dave said, the type from Woodcraft is more of a min-hole saw (I'm sure they work fine but I've never used them); the Unscrew-Ums are different. They are think-walled and they are split up the side so that they can expand around the screw shaft, grabbing onto it. Choose a size that's slightly smaller than the thread diameter of the screw, advance slowly using the reverse setting on your drill, and it will grab onto the screw shaft and turn it out. You'll probably have to remove the screw from the tool using pliers. Unscrew-ums come in many sizes:

https://tltools.com/collections/unscrew-ums

I have no interest in the company; I've just used them for years and love them. Never had one break and they've removed every offending screw, leaving the smallest possible hole to fill.

Michael

 

[Dave Osborn]

Michael,
Would these work on screws with the head still on or just broken screws?
Dave

 

[Michael Grace]

Good question, Dave. I don't know but I suppose they might work on screws with heads, but just the edge of the head alone might not give enough gripping power. With screws whose heads have sheared off (or are otherwise gone), the Unscrew-Um works its way down and down onto the shaft until there is enough contact to twist the screw out. So just making contact with the edges of the head - hmmm.... I might just give it a try.

 

[Michael Grace]

Update: Almost always (maybe always?) I've used Unscrew-Ums to remove screws whose heads have broken off. Tonight, before drilling in some screws and testing how the tool works when the heads are on, I actually got out and read the Unscrew-Ums instructions just now. Imagine that! It should be pointed out that the instructions are needlessly (IMHO) and extremely complicated. Even so, I read them. They say that if the screw head is still on, you should either drill off the head and attack the leftover shaft, or drill a pilot hole into the head, and follow that with the same size Unscrew-Um to drill off the rim of the screw head and then move on down to grip onto and remove the shaft.

Also, I read in the instructions that they say the lifetimes of these Unscrew-Ums varies ranges from:

"3 Unscrew-Ums per screw and 87 screws per Unscrew-Um. Expect to average removing 5 to 8 screws per Unscrew-Um."

I think they are talking about dulling from steel screws, but they say that the teeth can be re-filed and reset. My Unscrew-Ums have only (or mostly) been used on brass and sometimes bronze. I've had them for perhaps 20 years, and they still work great. None broken, and all still work fine. I have the "Boat Builder's Set" of five that range from 5/32" to 5/16" and they have worked great for all my needs.

 

[JimT]

thought I'd provide a quick update. Have just about finished up with scraping and paint removal. Decided to take advantage of good weather this weekend to give the boat a scrub with TSP and to see what the Teak Nu would do on about a 3' square test area. Below are some photos. I think there's pretty clear improvement to the look of the ribs but the planking on the floor seems a bit resistant to change. I did two coats each of the acid and base, any thoughts or advice would be great.



next morning:



Once I get back from a trip to Michigan next week I'll finish scrubbing the entire boat, and then it goes into the shop for the winter to do the wood repairs.

oh and I did finish scraping the paint off the inwales and transom etc this weekend

 

[JimT]

I can see why you would want to remove the keelson, if for no other reason than to clean up the crud.
The problem with removing it is that you will end up with a real floppy hull, because the ribs are not full length. Ribs from each side terminate under the keelson and hold the whole thing together.
I’ve done it with no problems, but you have to handle the hull carefully. Consider putting seats back in or temporary seats/bracing to help hold it together. Handle it carefully as you turn it over. Oops, your seat rails are removed. In that case clamp some cross braces from gunwale to gunwale in about 4 different spots.. That should add som rigidly.
The other thing that is a pain I’d that the keelson is screwed through the rib and into the keelson. That means that you’ll need to remove the planking that hides those screws. Not a big deal...just more time. The bright side is that you will get to clean all of the crud out from under those planks and the keelson.

well, it's taken me a while to get back to this project, but I'm now at the stage of figuring out what comes next. Current photos below.

I quickly realized I'm back to my keelson/keel question and so I have a quick followup question for you Dave--should I do the bracing now prior to replacing any of the ribs, and remove the keelson and keel now? My plan is to screw the seat rails back in temporarily and attach the 4 braces you suggested to the seat rails to hold things together.

Basically I just need to confirm the order of the steps I need to take before going too far on replacing ribs and planking.

 

[Dave Osborn]

You are on the right track. Just clamp on some braces.
You will likely need to remove the planking along the keelson to access the crews that hold the keelson to the ribs.
I would pull the keelson, clean out the gunk, repair it or replace it, and reinstall it before doing ribs.