Help identifying...owner thinks it's an Old town...

vtwoodworker

vtwoodworker

Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
Hi-

I'm potentially looking at this boat and am trying to figure out what it is...no keel, no half ribs, mid sized decks..havent been there in person yet, but think it might be a BN morris? I really want an old kennebec to match the salesman sample that has been in my family for ever....Thanks in advance for any help!
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Well, it doesn't look like an Old Town but it is difficult to tell from those pictures. A good picture of the serial numbers on each stem would be more useful. Please post some pictures of your Kennebec model as well.

Benson
 
Thanks, heading to pick it up either tonight or tomorrow morning, so I will post some more pics and information when I have it in my possession. The kennebec model is on display at y sister's and next time I am there I will snap some pics. I believe an original ad, or article is with it as well.

Thanks!

-Brian
 
As you noted it looks a lot like my Torpedo decked BNMorris... There are a number of obvious signs but the serial number, if you can find it, and the shape of the stem on the inside where it connects to the keel are the best indicators... Hope Kathy Kloss sees and follows this... She wrote and published a book on the BN Morris history. Keep us all informed. Give us lots of pictures... Harold Blumer....
 
Additional comment... My Torpedo deck unit has closed gunnels, and external Oak Stem, and an external keel strip... don't know if that mean anything... Harold
 
Ok, so picked up the boat this morning. It's an EM white. They told me it had been glassed, appears to only be in some spots....but may have coated the entire thing in resin. At first glance it didnt seem so bad, then I started feeling the planking around the stem on the bow and stern--flex, "crunch, crunch? Checked the inside, and someone has stashed foam in both ends for flotation....bet that helped rot the planking....

A little bummed on the bow and stern lact of structure....guess I wont really know how bad it is until I pull the decks...but everything else actually looks pretty good other than the decks which appear to have been plywood maybe with a solid king board down the middles(thats what we call them on antique lymans anyway). It is surprisingly light!

Canoe has some good history though...was originally an old dean of Middlebury College here in VT and was given to a women and her husband how owned a camp on Iriquis in VT, they used it for many years, bandaiding it, glassing it(as she said, but I think maybe it is just the external setms they glassed and they brushed the rest in resin) until it met its last resting place under they deck for the last 10 years....

Will post some addtional pics a little later, but they arent that great, will snap som e more when I get it off the car.
 
Interesting! You don't see many Whites with these longer decks. The tag is what I think of as the "heavy letters" version; not sure if this helps date the canoe, but I hope that with some canoes with good dates we can date canoes roughly by the style tag each has. Anyway, I've got an E.M. White with longer decks and will be happy to post photos for comparison. It's completely original, so hopefully it will help. There are some distinct differences. For example, the thwarts on mine are thinner and wider with fine edges, the kingplanks taper down much more than the ones shown here, and the decks aren't attached with fasteners across the deck panel surfaces. Photos to come.

- Michael
 
Ah ha...mystery solved. I was stumped by this one. I knew it wasn't an OT as soon as I saw the listing. I sent the owner a quick note bit never heard back.
I was scared away by the glass (I've been down that road too often) and tried to get Howie to bite on it. He's still unhappy with me for the Carleton so he decided to pass on it too.
Long decks on a White are not all that common. If you can get it put back together (you will) it ill be a pretty nice boat. I'm looking forward to seeing Michael's pictures.
Look at it this way, the price was right.
 
Michael, definitely looking forward to seeing your pictures!

Got it in the shop last night and the boat has had a lot of bandaids.....This has the 3 bad repairs you always only hope for one of in a wooden boat: Bondo, Fiberglass, and Foam. Thought the foam in the ends was for flotation, nope. Theres only about 6 inches of stem in the bow and stern. Actually the foam and fiberglass has probably helped enough to keep the shape that I can actually trace the lines for the new stems...THere is only one broken frame from what I have found so far...

Question: Were the stems in these steam bend or sawn? Cedar, white oak, ash?

So the decks appear to actually have(had) standard length white guide style decks underneath them and the longer ones were just an add on. I know the long decks are somewhat rare from what I'm hearing...but I do prfer the standard ones in terms of packing and space. Would people shoot me if I went to standard mahogany decks on this?

Here is my thought on structural order of work on the boat:
-MEasure, measure measure. Pattern and take note of everythning I could possibly need to from the outside.
-REmove decks, foam, etc.....
-Remove gunwhales
-Remove---errr...fiberglass
-re-assess
-Stems
-inwale scarfs
-Plank ends(guessing)
-any bad planking
-replaced cracked rib


Here is a link to an album with a bunch more pics--having a hard time getting them all to upload on here. Guessing I'm not gong to find a serial number anywhere on the non existant stems....
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5QGsk-tgnyddVAxeV9vOWo2Zlk?usp=sharing

Thanks for any and all input!!!
 
Hi Brian - My White isn't in a very accessible location, but IU was able to get a few detail photos to give you something to compare (click on thumbnails to enlarge). These images show the decking and coaming, tside stems, the junction of stem/gunwale/deck/kingplank, the amidships end of a deck panel, and a thwart. Note that the king planks on this one taper down to only about a half inch in width at the tips; yours don't taper nearly as much. The thwarts on this one are carefully shaped - more so than on most Whites I've seen. Gunwales, decks, kingplanks, thwarts and seat frames are all mahogany. Outside stems appear to be steam-bent white oak.

When you open up the decks, post some images of the deck framing. I may be able to get some photos of my canoe's deck framing, but at least I can describe similarities and differences. Happy to answer any questions, and to provide better photos if needed (a little work to get them, but that will be okay).

Hoping this helps - Michael
 

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Michael-

Thanks so much, appreciate the help! The thwarts on mine are beautifully sculpted like yours, almost scaplloped where they meet the inwhales--not nearly as noticeable in the raw though. What's interesting to me is the bow and stern shape on mine seem to be much more aggressive. A quick look under the extended decks, and there is a short deck--just like a guide, and two supportive ribs. This literally looks like the decks were fitted onto a guide model from what I can tell. Also the kingplank appears to be doug fir on mine, but the decks definitely mahogany. I wonder if they were replaced and they used wider boards to cover up rot, or stiffen up the decks for some reason--though I 'm sure they had nice contrast in their day. It's also interesting because where these planks meet the coming they are square ends, but the coming is ovbiously round--I'd of thought that the board would be concave to better mate with the coming...expecially since the craftsmanship is so nice. Also the fact that the screws are not clocked kinda bugs me and make sme think there has been some meddling with originality....

Any thoughts on how I can tell if the stems were originally internal or external? I guess it will probably be easier to tell once I start ripping the fiberglass off, but the pure lack of much(even broken down wood, or old fasteners) coming into where the keelson would be on a larger boat makes me wonder..

Any idea what the beam is on your boat?
 
I've never seen a White with long decks so the question about the standard decks residing under them is one that Michael might help us out with.
I do know that the Indian Girls with long decks are built that way. It actually makes quite a bit if sense to build them that way. Structurally there is really not much to the actual long decks. They have a few braces to attach the thin deck boards and king plank to but nothing that would secure the rails and stem in a substantial way. Building the short decks in ties the boat together. Once that is done, the framing for the long decks and the decks are added...as a decorative finish...
 
Long-decked Morris canoes can be built this way - short decked canoe given added framing, then deck panels, kingplanks and coamings. For examples, see these threads:

http://wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/b-n-morris-decks-and-deck-framing.13785/#post-69555
http://wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/morris-long-deck-question.14661/#post-74018

As for my White, I need to look again, but I don't recall there being any small deck underneath. I think the canoe was panned from the beginning to carry these long decks. Still, I will look again and will let you know the outcome.

Michael
 
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