Tie-down Points on a Chestnut

caleb

Curious about Wooden Canoes
I recently put a deposit on what I think is a Chestnut Ajax, and I plan to pick it up late next week. This will be my first wood and canvas canoe.

Assuming it passes inspection, I'll need to cartop it home. I have a Thule rack, and my car is set up with tie-down points front and rear. Usually I tie the front and rear to the carry handles/thwarts.

The Chestnut does not have carry thwarts, but it does have open gunnels and painters rings. What's the best tie-down point on a hull without carry thwarts?

Using the gunnels with careful cord tension seems like the appropriate course of action, but I thought I'd check with the experts here to make sure I'm not going to do any harm.
 
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The obvious options are painter rings (assuming that they are properly secured) or carry thwarts if they are available. Open gunwales allow you to thread a line between the ribs in the deck area. Seats offer the next best alternatives. Good luck,

Benson
 
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My advice, for what it's worth, is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER use a painter ring as a tie-down point. Simply too weak and unreliable. A lot of painter rings are only screwed in and can fairly easily pull out; even if bolted in, the bolts are usually slender and can break or pull out. The front/rear tie-downs which attach a canoe to your car top are a secondary line of defense. Your main 'hold' should be to your racks, good and firm so that the canoe doesn't slide or move, and your rack should be very firmly part of your vehicle to begin with. Front and rear tie-downs should be 'snug' without exerting a lot of pressure that bends your canoe; you don't want to over-do the force on the tie-down so much that it begins to change the shape of your canoe's bottom. Mount your canoe, if you can, so that slightly more of your canoe is to the rear of the center of your roof racks. Your canoe is a giant weather vane on your car, especially at highway speeds. By placing slightly more canoe to the rear, you remove the tendency of the canoe to sway from side to side. If you mount too far forward, the canoe will try to slew around and reverse itself, causing you all kinds of danger and fight. Putting a rope through the gunwale gap between ribs is preferable to using a painter ring, but better to use a secured thwart, if possible. I used to haul my Chestnut 'Bob's Special' using a rope through the gunwales. One day, I noticed that the screws holding my outwales to the canoe were loosening and my canoe was slowly coming apart; caused, I believe, from the wind shear and side forces resulting from highway travel. So, I found another way. My little invention also solved the problem of how to tie-down a long-decked courting canoe that had little by way of anything to tie on to. The pictures below show my 'horse collar' tie down apparatus. Very cheap to make - about 25' of line and two swimming noodles; maybe $10 or $12 and a bit of time. I made a few loop knots along the line so that it is quickly adjustable for different length canoes. My regular web tie-down straps/hooks connect to the horse collar loops. It provides the secondary security needed in case your main tie-downs at roof rack should fail. All your front/rear tie-downs are doing is preventing the canoe from becoming a dangerous, unguided missile, a threat to other traffic should your roof racks let go.
 

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Welcome to the world of cedar canvas canoe ownership!
I really appreciate Rogers words of advice-I'll do something similar for long highway speed transportation.
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To date on highways i've used the thwarts for my Bobs Special and Pal, but only as secondary to strapping to roof rack.
For short carries- ie at road not highway speeds- i do use the painter rings/ eye hooks that i've bolted to the bow and stern decks of both canoes.

Bruce
 
I'll second Roger's advice about painter rings...they are not intended for the loads that you might encounter while transporting a canoe at speed on the roof of a vehicle. At best they are intended for attaching a dainty little rope to use for securing the canoe to a dock or possibly for lining it... A good tug on a painter ring is all that it takes to split a deck from one end to the other..it's simply not worth the risk. As I think about it..none of my canoes have painter rings...
I also tie through the openings on an open railed canoe, always near the cant ribs/decks...but never with a rope. For this I use a piece of nylon webbing...the sort that you can buy at a rock climbing shop. I tie off a loop through the rails and then attach a rope to that.
For a closed railed canoe I tied to the seat frames...
I also use the typical cam buckle tie downs for securing the canoe to the roof rack system...the ones from Thule are very heavy duty and my favorite but you can find all variety of manufactures to choose from. Be sure to take note of the capacity.
Roof racks and rails...a can of worms. The short wheel base on Rogers setup is daunting...but it would be even worse on a Subaru. I like the long roof lines on Volvo wagons. I can space my roof rails and tie downs far enough apart to secure the canoe enough to resist cross winds.
Finally, Rogers interesting noodle soup could be simplified with a cam buckle tie down between the noodles...you would just simply cinch it up until it's tight...
 
Mike's keen eye has picked up a fault inherent in my hauling vehicle - a Jeep Grand Cherokee. There is, to be sure, a VERY short base on my roof rack between the cross bars. Makes for some mental discomfort, as I would much prefer a far greater spread to support the load. Another negative with this brand is that the current roof racks no longer have open spaces in the rails, through which to pass ropes or web straps. Thus, all fastenings must simply loop under the cross bars which, themselves, are solely dependent for their attachment to the base rails by one bolt at each end of the bar (a second bolt is really for adjustment, not a connection). Other vehicle makes have much superior systems in my view, but I'm stuck with the Jeep, which I like for other reasons. Furthermore, if you look closely, my canoe is badly centered; I have more length to the front than the rear of the rack center - basically breaking the advice I stressed above. This is another feature or failing that detracts from this vehicle as an ideal car topper/hauler for canoes. The 'weather-vaning' issue I mentioned is extremely important when hauling canoes. The wind shear forces on a canoe-sized object are immense at highway speeds, and it doesn't take a whole lot to make a trip go horribly wrong. Much easier to be overly safe than to be stopped picking up the kindling wood that was once your prized canoe. Even moving the canoe to the rear as little as 4"-6" will make a big difference and likely save you grief. Think defensively and act accordingly. Use tie-downs front and back, for safety, and check your straps/ropes for wear spots and fraying; replace before they wear through. Safe travel.

PS: Mike's idea for improving the noodle collar is welcome; probably other ways to make it better also. Keep me posted. Thanks.
 
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I would like to expand a bit on the weather vane issue that Roger mentions above.

A weather vane works because it pivots around one point that is forward of center, and generally the vane is flat, or nearly so. When a vane momentarily gets sideways to the wind, the sideways force of the wind is greater on the larger rear part of the vane than on the smaller front part of the vane, and the rear of the vane is pushed back so the entire vane is oriented again with the wind stream.
sss 524858870.511859.jpg

However, a car-topped canoe is unlike a proper weather vane in two ways. First, there is more than one potential pivot point -- usually two at the two cross bars where the canoe should be strapped down, and even more if any of the points where the canoe is fastened to the rack and/or rack is fastened to the car are loose. Second, and more important as discussed below, the canoe is not flat like a proper vane, but is, of course, canoe-shaped.

The sketches below approximate very roughly a 16’ canoe carried on bars about 40” apart. The left-hand sketch shows the canoe centered, with the overhang the same, front to rear. With the canoe properly aligned with the airflow of the moving car as in the left-hand sketch, wind pressure is about the same on both sides of the canoe, and all is well if the position of the canoe is undisturbed. However, if your vehicle has a short space between the bars (38” maximum on my Outback), there can be quite a long lever arm (about 77” for our 16’ canoe) ahead of the front bar, which the wind can use to exert a lot of force shifting the front of canoe sideways if the canoe gets even a bit out of line. At the rear, there is a lever arm of equal length, but because of the shape of the canoe, the air stream exerts virtually no lateral corrective force.

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Various forces are constantly attempting to move the canoe out of line -- shocks and vibrations from the road, gusts and blasts of cross-winds, heavy rains, and buffeting turbulence from large trucks -- all work to disrupt the security of the canoe.

The middle sketch shows how a canoe that has become skewed on the rack is affected by the wind. It is clear that the force of the air stream around the canoe is pushing the front of the canoe to the left -- and because the canoe is canoe-shaped, there is effectively no countervailing wind pressure at the rear of the canoe. Indeed, the canoe is actually the reverse of a weather vane.

There are three steps that are readily taken to reduce the reverse weather vane effect.

First, move the canoe more to the rear. The right-hand sketch above shows how this reduces the lever arm that the wind uses to twist the canoe -- the sketched red line indicates that there is less area forward of the pivot point for the air stream to exert force upon.

Second, use load stops on the crossbars. These strongly resist sideways motion and keep the canoe properly aligned fore-and-aft in the air stream, and once set, they also make lining the canoe up when loading and reloading much easier.
sss load stop.jpg

They vastly improve the lateral stability and security of the canoe on the rack when compared to just straps alone.
Both Yakima and Thule have them: https://www.yakima.com/loadstop and
https://www.thule.com/en-us/us/roof-rack/accessories/thule-aero-load-stops-4-502-_-1683229
Stops can readily be improvised for other racks.

Third, run tie-down lines from the canoe bow to anchor points at the front of your vehicle. Two lines, one to each side of the front of the vehicle are best, with triangulation giving more lateral stability than a single line can give (green lines on the left sketch), but even a single line will help greatly to keep the canoe pointed forward into the air stream (right sketch), and can act as a forward pivot point in some situations, reducing or eliminating the reverse vane effect. And in the event of some catastrophe, the lines will keep the canoe with your car rather than creating havoc by flying loose. A line at the rear of the car to the stern of the canoe is also helpful, but having the line at the front is most important.

For purposes of illustrations, the sketches show the canoe being seriously out of line, but the reverse weather vane effect is the same, if less severe, even if the canoe is only slightly out of line in the air stream.

Most vehicles, even big ones, should use front tie-down lines. I took a walk in my neighborhood where most everybody parks on the street, and looked at a couple of dozen cars/minivans/SUVs with roof racks or rails for racks. The great majority of all makes could separate their rack cross bars by no more than 40-42 inches, even on larger cars. A few cars were in the mid-40 inches -- e.g., the Mitsubishi Outlander and the Subaru Forrester. Separation on a large Mercedes SUV was about 50 inches, on a larger Chrysler Town and County about 53 inches, and surprisingly, on a small Kia Rondo about 50 inches. The cross bar spacing of most vehicles, then, will result in significant canoe overhangs of about 6 feet front and rear for a 16 foot canoe. The greatest bar separation I found was on a Volvo wagon, at 78" -- and that would still give overhangs just a bit shy of 5 feet.

If you car-top your canoe on any standard vehicle, even a big one, I think you should use a front tie down for any trip beyond a slow, short cross-town jaunt, and certainly for any trip that involves highway speeds. If you can, move the canoe back a bit -- have it hang a little extra off the back. And get load stops for your cross bars -- they add a surprising amount of stability and security.
 
I'm going to agree with Greg on all counts, except one: the tie down for the trailing end of the canoe should be tied to a thwart or seat, forward of the opposite end of the tie-down rope on the car, not the end of the canoe. If you tie to the end of the canoe, your car will look something like this:
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The green lines representing the end tie downs again. Note that the end lines aren't pulling against each other... If something bad happens to your belly straps, the end lines will want to push the canoe forward, completely de-stabilizing the entire rig. By tying the trailing end to a thwart or seat:
upload_2017-8-19_18-48-2.png

the two end lines will be in tension with one another, and will have greater (or at least some) holding power.

Try this: Put the canoe on your car, avoiding the gunnel brackets, so you don't have them interfering with this demo. Tie down the ends only, and see what happens as you tighten either end... the boat will slide toward the end you're tightening, and you won't find a spot where these lines are actually doing much. Then untie the ends, move the canoe back where you want it, and tie the end lines like the 2nd illustration. The two lines will be in tension with each other, and the canoe will have a much harder time moving anywhere.

Several years ago, I had a rear crossbar pop off the car, with two canoes tied on, at near highway speed. The rear tie downs, as in the 2nd illustration, were critical in keeping the canoes on the car, until I could pull over onto the shoulder. Without them, the semi behind me may have gotten two new hood ornaments.
 
I presently use a Grand Cherokee with 31" spread between my rack bars. I have hauled my canoe on many other vehicles as well.
I have never used a tie-down from or rear. My speeds are typically high 60's and cross-winds have been manageable.
The canoe is placed on the rack with the thwart mid-way between the bars.
I wrap the straps around the bars more than once on each side before tightening the buckle.That way the canoe cannot slip side to side.
Then the thwart is tied to both front and rear bars to make sure the canoe doesn't slip front to back.
Foe the vehicles I've used,the wind has always created a down-pressure on the canoe when placed this far back on the vehicle
 
I believe Paul makes a good point about placement of the rear tie down. If, unfortunately, the belly straps let go, or if the roof rack should separate from the vehicle, a canoe becomes 'looser' and can be prone to sliding off the side of the vehicle before you manage to stop. Anything that keeps it more snugly in place and less prone to moving is preferable.

Mikem, I can only say that I have owned a series of 4 or 5 Grand Cherokees over the years, all of which have transported canoes at one time or another. I have also had a roof load (not a canoe) come loose and slide off the side, although (barely) remaining attached to my Jeep. Reason was a frayed tie-down caused by side force windage swaying the load side to side; the jaws of the cam cleats chewed through two straps. I was lucky; no great loss or damage. Older Jeeps had a longer base between cross bars; they also had roof rails with built-in gaps which allowed tie-downs or ropes to pass through rails, not just wrap around cross-bars. I believe the newer designs leave much to be desired in the way of security.

In my experience, there is a huge probability of up-force on a canoe carried up-side-down on a vehicle's roof. The inverted canoe is a 'bowl' which traps air. The slope of a vehicle's front, from the grill, over its hood and up its windshield, all push air up and over the top, greatly increasing the 'up-lift' forces from underneath the 'bowl' formed by a canoe. That air gets trapped and tries to separate the canoe from the vehicle. Tie-downs don't simply just secure a load so it doesn't slide off; in the case of hauling a canoe, they also fight against the forces of nature trying to separate canoe from car. We are all free to choose how we go about this; but consider this, if you will:

Suppose an accident happens. That could well give rise to serious injury or damage to others. Police investigations could be involved; charges could be pending; litigation in civil actions in court is very likely. A major question in such an event becomes: "how did you go about securing the canoe? just what precautions did you take to prevent an occurrence?" In essence, it becomes an issue of determining whether anyone was negligent, or possibly even grossly negligent.

One way to possibly avoid either criminal or civil liability is to be able to demonstrate an abundance of caution and an application of foresight to one's actions. Use of both front and rear tie-downs in addition to belly straps is fairly common and not a matter of rocket science. Failure to use might be regarded by a judge as a matter of negligence, even gross negligence. For the small cost of an extra strap or two, and the few moments time it takes, I really believe in 'covering my ass'. Aside from not wanting to be on the wrong end of a judge's decision, I also want to avoid as much as possible having to pick up the bits and pieces of a destroyed canoe. My wife chuckles when I use 3, not just 2, separate belly straps; plus 2 additional tie-downs, front and rear. Overkill? Perhaps. But then I know that I can drive in heavy traffic, high winds, be buffeted by 'truck wash' and honestly say that I did my absolute best not to kill or endanger anyone else. A small price to pay for the enjoyable paddle at the end of the journey. It shouldn't be a question of how little one can get away with, but a matter of how well one has prepared.
 
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Paul's approach to tying down the rear sounds good to me. And everyone should read Roger's thoughtful remarks immediately above and take them to heart.

Car-topping a canoe successfully without using front and rear tie-down lines certainly can be done -- I have done so myself a few times in the dim, distant past.

But I can attach tie-downs front and rear in about two minutes. I carry tie-down lines of the right lengths for our canoes fitted with heavy-duty hooks that snap into the towing loops under the front of our car or the safety chain loops of the hitch at the rear. Unfastening is even quicker. It is so fast and simple that I always do it now as a matter of course.

Front and rear tie-down lines may seem redundant when the canoe is already well strapped down. But redundancy is one of the best insurers of a system's reliability, safety and success -- ask any good engineer.

I have never had a canoe come off a rack when I was car-topping. But I have had straps and lines and rack fixtures loosen up a bit, from vibration and stress. Once I had a very new strap from a top supplier simply come apart while on the road. Systems and materials fail
and even careful human beings sometimes slip up, leaving a loose strap unchecked or a cross bar clamp poorly fastened.

It may be rare that canoes come loose and leave roof racks, but when they do, the result is usually very unfortunate:

ss cr _DSC1905.jpg


This once-beautiful canoe did come off the top of a car (not mine) -- but it seems to me that a minute or two of extra time attaching some redundant lines that could prevent something like this is worth it -- just because they are, in part, redundant.
 
It seems to me that foam blocks might preferable to roof racks if the rack's center spans can be removed. I have a Subaru Forester, which has a 'roof rack' on the left & right side of the car but no center beam between them, and the rack's spacing wide enough to fit any canoe I've owned. For me foam blocks have two advantages: They can be placed at the extreme ends of the car's roof so you're holding on to a longer portion of the canoe. And the blocks are squishy so strap loosening over time isn't a problem. Another hint is to use ratcheting straps and loop the strap through the inside of the car - install the straps with the doors open then close the doors - so there's never a worry about how rigidly the racks are attached to the car.
 
I've had foam blocks work loose from under a canoe a few times, no matter how hard I cinched the straps. Just to save time, I took to tying the blocks to a thwart or seat rail, so I didn't have to walk back a half mile to pick up the blocks. The blocks that are counter-cut, such that one channel wraps around the gunnel, and the other wraps around the crossbar (at a 90 degree angle to each other) seem to work for a friend of mine, but since I have the clamps on the crossbars, I haven't really looked at them.

The driver is responsible for safely operating the vehicle, and its load.
 
This string should be a put on the "front page" and be required reading for all who visit. :)

Also, note that factory racks are for decoration not actual use, they have known to come off.
Folks should get aftermarket racks that mount solidly to the car, not the factory rack, and use the side restraints shown above.

And most important, get a car with a decent "wheelbase", or use a rack on the receiver hitch to extend it.

Dan
 
It's important to make a distinction between "factory racks"and roof rails that may come with you vehicle. On my Volvo's and also on my (previous) Audi's the factory roof rails are extremely robust and solidly mounted to the roof. These rails are where you can safely attach your roof rack system and to that your canoes. I prefer and use the Yakima Rail Grabbers. They attach to the roof rails. I use the Yakima gunwale brackets attached to the cross bars to secure the boat on the roof along with the usual assortment of cinch straps and rope... presumably Thule systems are their equal.
I have used (and have a collection of) various Yakima roof mounted systems. I have never found these to be as robust or as easy to properly mount as the Rails Grabbers. They can never be perfectly fitted and they always shift and loosen over time... they can and do cause roof damage if you keep them on the roof year round. But, faced with the option of using a factory supplied rack (other than Audi, Volvo or Mercedes roof rails as a base) I would use the roof mounted systems instead of the factory racks.
Looking at Rogers Jeep as an example, if that were my hauler I would probably try to use the factory setup with a Yakima roof mounted naked roof crossbar set mounted towards the front to increase the span on the roof...
For my pickup truck I have a bed mounted setup from TracRac...my truck has a 6 foot bed so the span on my TracRac is 68 inches..not quite as good as the Volvo but acceptable and very solid....
I do not use the foam cushions except to protect the rails ...I do not like to run straps through my cars..been there done that.
I also have a tendency to leave the front rope off depending upon the boat, how far I'm going etc...I don't advocate that but I'll admit that I do it..but keep in mind, my boats are very well cinched down to a solid rack system...they are not going anywhere...
 
It's great to see all the input here, and to read through the varying insights.

If this thread does nothing more than to get folks thinking about and analyzing the procedures they use, it will serve a most useful purpose. My suggestion is (whatever system you use), try to think of what could fail or go wrong?; where is the 'weakest link' in your attachment process? Hopefully, you are not totally dependent upon only one part of your apparatus, such as would cause a complete detachment if it fails. As Greg suggests, build in some redundancy; design a 'fail-safe' system, which ever way you go. Look at your system. Ask yourself: "what if this breaks?"; "what if that let's go?" "where am I then?" Plan a back-up. Check your racks and lines at intervals during your trip; things have a way of loosening under stress. Check for wear. Drive defensively. Have a great day!!
 
My suggestion is (whatever system you use), try to think of what could fail or go wrong?
Having had the experience of watching a canoe come off the roof and go bouncing down the road...that is very good advice..
Once it's in the air, there's no calling it back:eek:
 
Wow, this is quite a response! Thank you all for the varied responses and enthusiastic engagement. I have certainly never seen the swimming noodles approach before!

From a practical perspective, it's good to know that tying by the gunnels is a reasonable approach with a wooden canoe. If the canoe I'm considering turns out as-described with no surprises, I'll have the opportunity to use that knowledge by next weekend, and I'll post up some pictures of the new boat then.

One addition for the discussion here regarding the "sliding forward" dynamic. I used to have that issue when I tied over the bumper in front, but with my current car (VW Jetta wagon) there's nowhere to tie under the bumper, and I had to find a different solution. What I ended up with was some web loops that go under the hood and can be differently positioned for different hull lengths; Thule calls them "quick loops." With these loops positioned even with the front of the hull, I tie separate ropes to each side. The tension is then entirely perpendicular to the hull, and as long as the rear tie-down is just snug rather than tight, the canoe won't slide to the front or rear even under hard braking. I've found the hood loops to be a real help when driving long distances at freeway speeds.
 
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I to have a short top vehicle but have found the use of a "one man canoe loader" helps spread the load better.
This is the set up on the Caravan which does have a long roof line.
Now I have a Kia Soul so I really do need this extra weigh bearing point.
I now have a trailer which I feel is a much better option, but today I have to drive 400km to pick up some lengths of red cedar, so instead of the trailer I will use the above set up on the Kia Soul.
 
An informative and fun thread. I've been car topping a variety of gear for years. Windsurfers, hand gliders, iceboats and now canoes! I once sent a windsurfer sailing through an intersection after coming to a quick stop having used bungee cords as tie downs!!! I evolved from using a VW Beetle to Volvo wagons. After the windsurfer incident I realized investing in a quality roof rack system is a must. I also use the Yakima system on my Volvo wagon with the load stops/ gunnel brackets. The load stops are the BEST! With my long roof line (and I might add low vehicle height; I'm short) the brackets grab the narrowing part of the hull preventing ANY front to back shifting. I've had success using hood loops for front end stability but usually use just the one line in the front. Most of my experience is with fiberglass or cedar strip hulls so the attachment to scuppers, thwarts or (yes) painter rings usually works. When my restoration is complete I'll reread this thread!!

Just a thought, I imagine a nice custom canoe cover with attachment points sew in would be a solution for that special canoe!
 
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