This Old Town

[woodrim]

I have an old Old Town canoe that regretfully I will be selling. I'm selling my lake house which has been in the family for 89 years. I'm third generation and had hoped to reach 100 years, but that is not to be. The canoe has been there for as long as I can remember and even long before that. I have pictures from the mid-1930s of family in that canoe. I suspect it was around even before that, but those are the first pictures. My great uncle was a canoeist, member of the Rutherford (NJ) Canoe Club and champion canoe racer around 1900. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the canoe might have been brought to the lake by him or possibly inherited after his death, but this is conjecture on my part. I cannot get the seial number from the canoe until my next visit. So I'm wondering if any of the more knowledgeable folks might be able to recognize the model from pictures and possibly estimate the year of manufacture. I can remember getting it out in the '70s and using it, then my son did the same about five years ago.

mid-'40s

1935

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Hi Woodrim,

Looks like your canoe might be a late-teens to maybe early-30s 16' Old Town HW model. They were made in different grades, and yours could be CS (standard) or AA (fancy). The trim wood in a AA would be mahogany. Your trim (gunwales, decks, thwarts & seats frames) is pretty light colored, like the ash, etc. used in CS-grade canoes, but that might just be dust. The grain and even tone makes me think it's mahogany.

Here's one description of value:

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?57-How-much-is-my-old-wooden-canoe-worth

Your canoe looks like it's in excellent condition structurally, but would require canvas replacement to be useable.

 

[woodrim]

"Your trim (gunwales, decks, thwarts & seats frames) is pretty light colored"

Actually, they were painted a light green many decades ago. The canoe is useable as is, but certainly could use some restoration. The paint on the outside is peeling and I do remember seeing some very old patches. Hard to believe, but with the way time keeps marching on so quickly, this old canoe is actually approaching 100 years old. I will ask my son to make a visit and get the serial number. I'd like to know who first purchased it and when - and if my guess about great uncle Frank is correct. For those of you who might enjoy some very old canoe news, I found these articles involving my great uncle Frank McLees.

Given the date of this story, it certainly was not this canoe that Frank was paddling when he saved the boy.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F1091FFE3D5C15738DDDA00A94DE405B8685F0D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FB0814FD3A5515738DDDAF0994D1405B8485F0D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40B11FA3C5A1A738DDDA80994DA415B8385F0D3

 

[Dan Lindberg]

I'm going to guess mid 20's or later, what with the open gunwales and IISC the diamond bolts.

Waiting for the S/N so we will know.

Dan

 

[woodrim]

Only a year later, I now have the serial number. It is pretty hard to make out with my old eyes, but seems to read 83846 17. Does that seem right? Almost missed the 6 and wonder if there might be something between it and the 17, but seems not. I suspect the 17 indicates the length as that is what I've measured. Looking forward to whatever information you folks can provide. I now have the canoe here with me in Charleston, SC.

 

[Greg Nolan]

The Old Town canoe with serial number 83846 is a 17 foot long, AA (top) grade Charles River model with western red cedar planking, open mahogany gunwales and mahogany seats, decks and thwarts, and was equipped with a keel and a floor rack. It was mostly built in 1924, and revarnished on July 7, 1925. The original color was dark green. It was shipped on June 16, 1927 to Macy's Department Store on Herald Square (34th Street and Broadway) in New York City. A scan of this build record can be found by following the link behind the thumbnail image attached below.



This scan and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/about-the-wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://store.wcha.org/WCHA-New-Membership.html to join.

It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.


Greg Nolan

 

[woodrim]

Thank you so much for that information. I had hoped to see a family name, but now can only speculate that it was either my grandfather or great uncle that purchased it from Macy's; both worked in NYC. Now I also need to decide what to do with it. I suppose I could put it to use here in the rivers and creeks. I had originally planned on selling it, and still might, but I might also consider restoring it myself. I don't have any experience with the canvas, but am a woodworker, so that part of it I'll handle okay.

One other question for now; what is a floor rack? Oh, another question; what would the seats have originally been made of and how?

 

[Jan Bloom]

The seats would have been Mahogany. They were possibly done with 2 dowels set parallel rather than a mortice and tenon. At the time your canoe was built the seats would have been caned by hand. There are 2 different drilling patterns for Old Town seats. One pattern uses a hole in each corner the other does not. My AA grade 18ft HW ca 1929 has the pattern w/o the hole in the corner. My 17 ft CS grade HW ca 1937 has the pattern that uses the hole in the center. I will measure the seats and send dimensions and hole pattern information tomorrow.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Floor rack is another term for the floorboards that some canoes are equiped with. They help keep things dry by raising them above the bottom of the canoe a small bit, and they protect the bottom of the canoe from gear carried in the canoe -- camping gear, fishing paraphernalia, etc.

There is a discussion of them at: http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=360

and a photograph of the floor rack of a Carlton canoe, showing how they are typically held in place, using a bit of the same kind of brass strip as is used for the bow and stern bang plate:

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?6296-Old-Town-S-N-16800/page2&highlight=floorboards

That's a nice canoe you have there, and it looks to be in easily restorable condition. Get a copy of the "bible" of restoration, The Wooden Canoe, by Stelmok and Thurlow. (check your PM's)

Greg

 

[woodrim]

Thank you Jan and Greg. I will look for evidence of these details. Unfortunately the floor rack has gone missing. I don't recall ever seeing it myself and the 1935 picture above shows that it was not in place at that time. However, I have just looked at another picture from 1935 which clearly shows dirt or weathering in the shape of the rails running along the bottom, indicating that the rack had definitely been there prior to '35, and maybe not long before. I see also in the above picture with my sisters that there was a seat back in a fan-like configuration. I have no recollection of seeing either of these missing pieces during my years at the lake - 1951 to present. I suppose I can easily recreate both pieces if I had the precise measurements, material and constructin details. I am in the business of replicating old wood items to precise detail and may be a resource to the folks here in the need of such pieces.

 

[Benson Gray]

I see also in the above picture with my sisters that there was a seat back in a fan-like configuration. I have no recollection of seeing either of these missing pieces during my years at the lake - 1951 to present. I suppose I can easily recreate both pieces if I had the precise measurements, material and constructin details. I am in the business of replicating old wood items to precise detail and may be a resource to the folks here in the need of such pieces.

You can probably find one if you aren't in a hurry. The one at http://www.ebay.com/itm/281033529346 is $79 and another at http://www.unclehenrys.com/init/cla...unclehenrys.com/init/search/results/1#4007970 is $15. I also have two like these and can provide the measurements if you would prefer to build one yourself. The construction is very similar to the floor rack. Good luck,

Benson

 

[Greg Nolan]

For a couple of good detail pictures of an installed floor rack, see:

http://indigenousboats.blogspot.com/2012/12/1941-old-town-guide-never-used.html

Note that the canoe shown has half ribs, which made it necessary to install the floor rack upside down, because the rack cross bars could not fit between the ribs, as they usually would. But the turnbutton made from a piece of stem band is as usual.

 

[woodrim]

You can probably find one if you aren't in a hurry. The one at http://www.ebay.com/itm/281033529346 is $79 and another at http://www.unclehenrys.com/init/cla...unclehenrys.com/init/search/results/1#4007970 is $15. I also have two like these and can provide the measurements if you would prefer to build one yourself. The construction is very similar to the floor rack. Good luck,

Benson

One seems older by the label, and has 13 vertical slat vs. 12 on the other. Which would be correct for the 1924 canoe that I have? Also, can those labels be purchased?

 

[woodrim]

For a couple of good detail pictures of an installed floor rack, see:

http://indigenousboats.blogspot.com/2012/12/1941-old-town-guide-never-used.html

Note that the canoe shown has half ribs, which made it necessary to install the floor rack upside down, because the rack cross bars could not fit between the ribs, as they usually would. But the turnbutton made from a piece of stem band is as usual.

Thanks much. I wouldn't have know it was installed upside down. I will have many questions as I progress (slowly for sure). I need to familiarize myself with the terminology too.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Decals are available in the WCHA Store...

http://store.wcha.org/Decals/

 

[Benson Gray]

One seems older by the label, and has 13 vertical slat vs. 12 on the other. Which would be correct for the 1924 canoe that I have? Also, can those labels be purchased?

A vinyl adhesive reproduction of this label is available from http://store.wcha.org/Old-Town-Decal-Peel-Off-Black-White-Gold.html as Kathy mentioned. The originals were a water slide decal. These backrests were hand made by many different people over an extended period so it is not surprising that there were a number of variations. I don't know of any existing research that could tell you which versions were used in 1924. Your old picture at the beginning of this thread shows 12. I have two with both the old and new style original decals that also have 12. The illustration in the 1924 catalog shows 13 as attached below. You can decide what you like and it is not likely that anyone will ever be able to prove that it is not correct.

Benson

 

[woodrim]

More good information, thank you both. I love those accessories. Just a thought; the number of vertical slats to the back rest could be determined by the width of the canoe, assuming they were different by model?

 

[Benson Gray]

the number of vertical slats to the back rest could be determined by the width of the canoe, assuming they were different by model?

This is an interesting idea but I would expect to see a notation in the catalogs for ordering and in the inventories for tracking if this was the case. Copies of the ordering page from the 1924 catalog and the factory inventory from 1924 are attached below with no such indications for the "Back rest, double width" other than spruce or mahogany. It is possible that the mahogany ones had an extra slat but this doesn't seem likely.

Benson

 

[woodrim]

It's so great to have all that information. Since the numbers in the price column of the inventory are lower than the other price list document, I presume they are actually cost figures and not price, correct? If true, wow, some mark-ups Looking at numbers like those amaze me, but all is relative.

 

[Benson Gray]

Since the numbers in the price column of the inventory are lower than the other price list document, I presume they are actually cost figures and not price, correct? Looking at numbers like those amaze me, but all is relative.

I am not an expert in these matters but I believe that it has been historically common to have a manufacturers cost be about half of the wholesale price to the dealers which would in turn be about half of the retail price to the end consumer. These prices are in the right range for that type of a structure. The substantial overhead and other indirect costs can still make this pricing un-profitable. The company records at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17976&d=1317436334 show that this was the case during the first World War. It is all relative.

Benson