The Stradavarius of canvas fill?

[Howard Caplan]

As I get myself and my canoe ready for new canvas, I've been reading as much as I can about restoration.
What I am noticing (this is old to most of you but new to me) is every builder seems to have their own recipe for filler.
I am reminded of the Stradavarius violin. They say the key to violin making is the varnish and every builder has their own recipe. The Strad, of course, is considered the best violin made and an original fetches unbelievable prices which all attribute to the varnish he used.

Is there any one canoe builder or company that used a filler recipe that was far superior to others?

 

[Andre Cloutier]

strad varnish

Sorry but cant let that go, since 12 years of my life were spent trying to become a violinist ( settled for being someone who merely plays the violin )
Just to be clear, build quality is what separated Strads from everything else, not so much the finish. Just make sure you use the canoe, because not a lot of people have seen a Strad, and fewer still have played one.

 

[Dan Miller]

Is there any one canoe builder or company that used a filler recipe that was far superior to others?

The short answer is no. Most of the old canoe companies' recipes have been lost to history. The few that we do have show that more than one recipe has been used over time; changes were probably made for a variety of reasons, one being the continuous search for the perfect filler, another being changes required due to health or regulatory reasons. It seems that all of the companies had problems at one time or another.

One would think that after 110 years of canvas canoe construction, that a reliably good filler would have been developed. Truth is, those who use the various fillers today seem to run into problems sooner or later. This is nothing new - we see in the Old Town build records many canoes that were returned to the factory for refinishing due to blistering or filler problems. In the end, we are taking a variety of components (some of which may very well be incompatible), exposing them to a fairly harsh environment, and expecting them to perform to perfection (I'd say like on an automobile, but you should have seen my late '80's pick-up truck and its spectacular paint failure...!)

Keep in mind too, that the canvas canoe wasn't developed because it was better technology (many thought, and still think it wasn't) - it was purely a product of the factory, well suited for mass production.

Based on my own experience, and a lack (so far, knock on wooden head) of complaints from customers, that one of three options is certainly viable:

1) traditional filler, no lead: I've rolled my own using the Old Town recipe published elsewhere on this site, and I've used Rollin's Northwoods filler. The key with this filler, in my opinion, is sufficient curing time and not sanding with too fine a grit paper during finishing.

2) leaded filler - I've not used this, but hear great things from other restorers (including Gil, but he might not remember...). It is available from Bill Clements, and on my short list of things to try.

3) non-traditional filler - I've used Cecofill, which I learned how to use from the late Chris Merigold. It is available from Tom MacKenzie. My experience with this product to date has been very positive, it can be easier to apply than traditional filler, and doesn't require the same curing time.

Probably not much help, but worth what you paid for it...
Dan

 

[Howard Caplan]

Dan -
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. There doesn't seem to be one builder or company that had the perfect recipe, whether we know the recipe or not.
So we are working with an imperfect material, attempting to make it as usable as possible within the realm of safety, practibility and cost.
As far as my Stradivarius analagy while not a perfect one, I still feel is apt as I have read quite a bit on the Strads that we know about and have seen quite a bit on my main sources of learning (TV). The recurring conclusions reached through research is (not to take anything away from "build quality") is the varnish on the Strads has not hardened the way other varnishes by other builders have. The researchers have taken this fact and concluded that his varnish recipe - which is still unknown - is what gives the Stradvarius it's sought after sound.
Thanks,
howard

 

[Andre Cloutier]

strad theories

Wow didnt mean to upset anyone, but the varnish theory is just that, theory
here's a little background on competing theories relating to Strads
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f03/web3/s1kim.html
besides, facts are useless - you can prove anything with facts...

 

[Howard Caplan]

Andre - not upset at all. I have always believed the theory of varnish and your alternate statement did cause some cognitive dissonance but not upsetment. Tone is very difficult to convey, electronically.
Now, I am looking forward to reading the link you sent. And this may be added to my "everything I know is wrong file" which is the largest file I keep.
Howard

 

[Andre Cloutier]

It's all good
besides, I dont know nearly as much now (20 years on) as I did when I was 18!
I still cant figure out why there's an expiry date on sour cream.....

 

[Larry Meyer]

Very interesting article on Strads. Thanks for posting.

I’ve played guitar for 25 years, read much about their construction and talked to some luthiers. I suspect secret of the Stads is the quality of the wood. Certainly with guitars, combination of Brazilian rosewood for back and sides and old growth spruce, with tight growth rings (Adirondack spruce being the best now available, it seems) makes for the best acoustic guitars.

Most guitar makers will say they can never be sure which guitars they make will have that special magic that makes one guitar stand out from all the others they make. They can build to a minimum standard—in terms of construction methods and wood selection—and hope for the best and sometimes a miracle happens.

I suspect what happened with Stradivarius is that he collected or inherited a quantity of exceptional wood and learned to work with it. So part accident, part craftsmanship. Certainly they have a long history and part of the story may be how their owners and conservators cared for them after they left the shop.

I do know this. My daughter started learning to play violin with an old post-war German production model student violin of mediocre to poor quality. The peg head broke off: I fixed it (don’t ask me how). It has a six crack on the top. I recently got her a new very good quality violin. Tone and volume of the old German violin is equal to, if not better, than the new violin! And the new violin, according to her instructors, is an excellent violin.

I sometimes wonder if there’s not some sort of symbiotic relationship between the quality of the instrument and the quality of the player. In other words, maybe over time excellent instruments get better when played by great players.

 

[Scot T]

An interesting topic, for sure.

Larry, you have touched on an idea that has been known for a long time concerning violins. Their quality is not only who made them, the quality of the wood and to some degree the finish but most importantly who played them. All quality violins that are documented (meaning come with a record of whom they were purchased by and who played them throughout their life time) are more highly valued than those that are not. This value is not only in” hard cold cash” but also in the sound they produce.

The instrument that has passed through a series of top quality players has had the wood stimulated by superb technique and music. This stimulation has vibrated the wood fibers in a way that they respond, to the sounds they are being asked to produce, in an ever positive (to our ears) way. As a side note, this is not so with acoustic guitars. They respond to good players until they reach a peak (10 – 20 years) and then they start to die off and the sound becomes “flabby”.

I did not want to get too deep into this here as there are some very detailed studies posted out there if one is interested in searching them out. One that I found particularly interesting concerns a violin that Stradivari surely made (there is some debate) and is claimed by many to be the most perfect violin. That would be the one named “The Messiah”.
http://www.celloheaven.com/hill/messiah/messiah.htm

Stradivari apparently made it for himself using only the best of materials, workmanship etc, but put it in a drawer where it was almost never played. Now it is housed behind glass in a museum with no-one to play it. A violinist, Pinchas Zukerman (I believe, I cannot remember the details of the article exactly) received permission to play it some years back. Much to his disappointment it was very lacking in sound quality. It had never been played by a high quality performer and the sound was never guided to full development.

So my question to ponder…suppose Bill Mason and I bought sister Chestnut Prospector canoes. We set off to paddle them for the next twenty years, me my usual 20+/- days a year with my adequate technique and limited paddle stroke repertoire and Bill with his 200+/- days a year and his masters touch. After 20 years we got together to try each others canoes. Whose do you think would respond most favorably? Which would feel like the true Strad canoe?

 

[Larry Meyer]

Purely a guess on my part. I had no idea there was literature on the subject. It seems reasonable, though. I suppose the remaining question is does some kind of physical transformation of the violin occur over time? Or is it a cultural development? In other words, has a Strad played by a master come to define what is culturally accepted as the finest sound a violin can make? Were there other excellent violins, whose qualities were not those favored by the evolution of musical taste, were not played by masters, and hence drifted into obscurity?

I sense this matter of a symbiotic relation can occur because of what sometime happens when I play acoustic guitar. When I play my guitars, there are times when I know my hands and these guitars are the perfect match. Playing a musical instrument builds an enormous repository of muscle memory and the interplay of hands and the physical instrument is quite complex. When I play somebody else’s guitar, I just can’t play as well as I can on my own, no matter how slight the measurable differences in action, etc. I suspect violins long played by masters have acquired characteristics that can only be created by centuries of superb technique.

This business of muscle memory is interesting. We’ve had some posts about learning to do the Canadian or North Woods stroke. When I was learning to paddle, I tried to learn the stroke, with very poor results. After 3-4 years of paddling solo a lot, I just found myself doing it one day. It was like my muscle memory said to my conscious brain, “ok, if you’re going to keep up this paddling business, we’re going to find the most efficient way to paddle.”

I do wonder about what you say about guitars, though. Tony Rice plays a Martin dread once owned by Josh White and says there ain’t another one like it.

 

[pat chapman]

Back to the original question of the best canvas filler on the market...

Of course the filler I make, use, and sell is the best. I'd be happy to sell you as much as you need!

In reality, I'm guessing that it would take quite a research project, ala Consumer Reports, to definitively answer that question. I think you wouldn't go wrong, though, buying from any of the well established builders that have had some time under their belts to work out their filler recipes to perfection. With some minor adjustments, the recipes elsewhere on the WCHA site make perfectly serviceable fillers, if you're inclined to make your own.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Hi Howard,

I've held off but....

Why do you want the "best", it's just a filler for the canvas and not only does it get painted but eventually it gets replaced when the canoe is recanvased.

And what is the definition of "best", ie, lightest, longest lasting, shortest cure time, easiest to work, smoothest, hardest, most flexable.....different fillers will have different properties, what is "best" depends on what job you want to do.

Folks have used fillers ranging from epoxy, to traditional linseed oil/silica/lead, to airplane dope, to latex paint and many others.

Like Pat said, just get a gallon or so from any of the "well established builders that have had some time under their belts to work out their filler recipes to perfection" and rub it in.

I've only used Rollin's and Old Town's so far, and they worked fine.
The only filler I've used that didn't work well was one I mixed myself based on the recipes listed on the site. So Pat's comment's about tweaks are interesting.

Dan

 

[Howard Caplan]

Dan and all -

My original analogy was shot out of the water as my reading about varnish on the Stradivarius seems to be very old and replaced with a new line of thought about the tonal qualities of the these remaining instruments.
I am not looking for the best filler. My question was more academic as it seems everybody uses a different formula with different results. Which led me to wonder if one builder had a formula that everybody agreed was great!
Re-reading the Joe Seliga book, I was struck by his visit to Old Town when he went across the river and met a builder who's formula Joe started using. And that is what got me thinking about it.

Purely academic. I wonder though, if somebody is holding back on a great formula that is better then any other.

 

[DGuertin]

Purely academic. I wonder though, if somebody is holding back on a great formula that is better then any other.

Funny this topic has arisen right now...I'm trying to finish off and write up a whole mess of info I've been sifting thru' about just this topic!

I'll broadcast when I'm done.

 

[Howard Caplan]

Dennis - I can't wait to see your write up!