Removing inside finish and old fiberglass questions.

[trouts2]

The problem part.

The boat did not come with gunwales so I took measurements for them from the 14 boat. The construction seemed the same with just an extended midsection i.e. the bow transom shape and measurements for the 12 and 14 match. But, when the boat was kevlar'ed it looks like about 1/4 of an inch was removed from the stop strake. When I fit the inwale there was daylight under the inwale. The two pictures with clamps are the inside and outside view of the inwale.
The picture without clamps is the outwale which also has about 1/8 of an inch of daylight.

The original outwale had a rabbit. It fit up to the top of the ribs. The cut section of the rabbit fit over the outside of the top strake and covered it by about 1/4 inch. It covered the tacks and a small lip of canvas.

The existing 12 footer rib goes above the top strake about 1/4 on an inch higher than on the 14 footer. I think the top strake was cut when the kevlar when on and now there's daylight for both the inwale and outwale.

What's the best correction?
Scrap the new gunwales:
I could scrap the existing inwales and outwales and get larger gunwales cut. The local lumber yard had White Oak but no thicker pieces than what I have so would be a pain to scrap them.

Cut ribs tops:
Cut down 1/4 inch off all the rib tops to get them back to size.

Added material:
3/8ths sections could be cut and bent to go under the inwale and outwale and tacked and clued under the new gunwales.

Since the boat is now kevlar and stuck fairly well onto the strakes I don't think the overlap of the outwale would be as important as it once was when the boat was canvas. Adding a 3/8 inch section would be to keep water out and looks rather than hold on canvas.

Maybe the best thing is cutting all the rib tops and continue with the repairs but I'm not sure so seeking some advise before I commit to making a possible mistake.

 

[Gil Cramer]

Move the rails down and cut the rib tops is what I would most likely do.

 

[trouts2]

Rather than bending a single piece and worrying about spring back I decided to go with a laminated brace that was beefed up. The original was ½ x 7/8. The laminate was 5 strips of 1/8 x 1 1/8 so 5/8 x 1 1/8 and makes a strong brace. Hopefully it will give a bit more support to the transom which will get a 5hp engine. Picture of the original and laminated braces.

So far 45 rotted rip tops have been scarfed in and few more to go.

Started repairing of some of the cracked ribs before the inwale and seats get attached as they’ll be in the way. How to clamp a whole rib in place for gluing was a problem. If someone has a way to do that please let me know. Clamping a whole rib by placing another rib on top, clamping the sides with deep throated clamps and weights on the floor seemed to be too messy and unreliable. ??

Instead of that sections of cracked ribs are being repaired by scarfing in pieces.
As suggested in a prior posit it would be possible to remove a rib cut the tacks, drill holes from the outside, clinch then epoxy over the holes. Since there are so many rib cracks it would be just too much work. For a rib or two that would be a good option.
I’ve just repaired a few places so far. If there is a better way please let me know. I’m doing floor breaks and half ribs by double scarfing in a short section with TiteBond III and half ribs by putting a few bricks on top for clamping. For rib sections that go on the side and extend through the curve of the boat I’ve been clamping the side with deep throat clamps over a second rib to help push down the first rib. The part that extends to the floor gets bricks. I can’t use a long pole to the garage joists as the garage door is in the way. If there’s a better way please let me know.

 

[trouts2]

Ran into a problem with the inwale fit to the ribs in the section where the bow side is flared. The gunwale is more vertical than the ribs at this section. Counting from the front, the rib to inwale fit is ok for ribs 1 through 7 but at 8 through 12 the inwale top is away from the rib more than the bottom. Pulling in the inwale to the rib is impossible.
Part of the problem is using straight sections to replace the rib top, the sag of the boat over the years and a prior strake repair which deformed the boat a bit.

One picture shows the inwale away from the rib tip. This picture is for explanation and not as bad as the fit really is. The inwale in the problem section is much further away than what’s shown.

The rib top picture shows some of the first rib tips replaced and some new tips to correct the fit problem. What was done is add new tips with a curve to compensate for the fit. Ribs 8, 9 and 11 are second replacements with more of a curve than 10 and 12. The ides is to make the inwale fit better. I’m hoping that with 10 and 12 replaced that the fit will be ok when the bow gets fixed with the holding straps to the dimensions it would be with the seat in place.

I’m new to this so did not expect such a problem. I’m installing a dry inwale that is bent with an over bend to compensate for spring back. The curve fit is ok and easily takes the shape of the bow but not the shape of the rib top angle. ?? The inwale is coming up from the back of the boat vertical. When it gets to the flared section it’s a problem and at that deck ok. What’s the proper way to install an inwale in a boat flared like this? Start from the back, front, flared section? No matter where it’s starts it also seems to require some bending in the horizontal plane to get it in place.

It seems that with the bow flare some compensation would have to take place. At the factory maybe they did the fit with wet with a steamed inwale with some give for manipulating the fit i.e. twisting. That would require some stress on the inwale and ribs which is not good. I’m not sure how they did that but with the way things fit on my boat I’m trying to compensate with more curve in the tips in the area of ribs 8 through 12. Again any suggestions about all this would be appreciated.

Also, I believe the inwale is attached with ring nails and I think no glue is used. How many ring nails are used per rib? It may have been three. The few rib tops that are whole seem to be very strong but they have nail holes and I’m not sure they can take three new nails without cracking. Is predrilling a common thing? I have not bought any ring nails yet but the originals seem to have small heads and could be a problem with the old tips. Maybe the best thing is to just replace all the tips. ?

 

[Grandlaker]

A canoe builder's best friend is a good sharp block plane. Working from bow to stern hand plane a taper to the rib side of the gunwale to fit tight . Most ribs are nailed on with 2 nails. then the top plank will get another nail at the gunwale. I use an air stapler that takes 3/4" to 1 1/4" galvanized staples They hold real good and no splitting. I usually replace my gunwales first fasten to the good ribs and then replace the bad ribs This give you a solid and stable hull to work your ribs to . you can clamp a board across gunwales and make up short spring poles to hold your rib splices when gluing . It's looking good and I bet you having fun.

 

[trouts2]

>>>Working from bow to stern hand plane a taper to the rib side of the gunwale to fit tight .

The hope was for a perfect fit but if the replacement tips don’t cure the rib and bow angle problem then planning would get it on the money. With the second fit of tips the angle will be very small and only at a few ribs so planning will be minor. I wasn't sure if that would be "legal".

>>>I use an air stapler that takes 3/4" to 1 1/4" galvanized staples
I just tried out some ring nails and air gun with ¾ staples into old rib and new rib pieces on Red Oak flooring. On tugging them apart all pieces of wood broke before the staples or ring nails pulled out. It seems like a clean alternative and would make fastening the inwale a snap.

The boat may be flabby so I held off putting on the inwale. There are a few issues to take care of first.
There is a rotted transom oak frame “rib” with a rotted tip. It’s an oak piece shaped like a rib and fit in the back corner of the transom and side of the boat. I think that has to be scarfed in before the gunwale is attached.
There is also the deck which I’m not sure what to do with. I think a piece of cedar should be fit on the outside of the inwale either before the inwale goes on or when the inwale is attached. ?
And, the tip of the stem is rotted. That may have to be scarfed also. The ribs are being shortened by ¼ of an inch for another problem. That ¼ inch might just make it so the stem can be trimmed. Possibly when a new deck is made it could have an addition on the forward part to compensate for a cut down stem.

So there are a few issues that make me nervous about attaching the inwale. The order currently is to put the seats in after the ribs below them are taken care of. That will give a better shape to the boat. With the transom rib and deck fixed I think the way will be clear to then attach the inwale.

>>clamp a board across gunwales and make up short spring poles to hold your rib splices when gluing .

That would solve some problems.

Thanks for the help.
David

 

[trouts2]

Looking for a head check on the bent transom.

First of all if someone knows the proper names of the following please let me know.
1. The oak piece 1/2 x 1/2 bent like a rib that attaches to the transom and side of the boat. It makes a nailer for the transom, strakes and canvas.
2. The two pieces that attach to the outside and inside of the top of the transom. One is like the outwale i.e. has the same shape and rabbit. If it still called an outwale when it’s across the back of the transom?
3. The other is at the same height and on the inside of the transom. It’s 1/2" x 2" and is screwed into by the outside piece. The motor clamps to this piece.

The transom got deformed, bowed out, over the years and fairly fixed in that shape. There are two pieces that fit on the top of the transom one outside and one inside. If I try to fit the outside piece across the top outside of the transom it takes considerable force to just get it in place. The wood is old, dried and bit brittle. It seems like something is going to give with pressure. Extensive force is required to get the transom flat so the straight top pieces can be installed.

There is about a ¼ in of forgiveness in the keelson before it stops moving when I force the outer frame piece forward into the transom. The force is probably getting distributed to the forward tip of the keelson and pulling on the tacks holding on the transom which go into the last oak rib. If it was a newer boat it would not be so much of an issue but as is I think forcing the top parts into place will do some damage.

There isn't a lot holding on the transom as is. If the two top pieces were forced on then all the stress in into the keelson and the outside tacks.

What I came up with so far is:
1. Use force. I think something will break before everything gets buttoned up.
2. Wet the transom and back section of the floor and sides to get some give. This might be lame.
3. Remove the keelson and try to shave off a very slight angle to allow the thin transom to bend back to shape. The transom is fairly thin plywood and would probably be easy to flex if the keelson was not there.
Is there some other way to deal with this?
4. Cut the kevlar and replace the transom.
5. Bend the two top supports with a very slight bend.

The rib tips got adjusted and fit of the inwale ok. The seats are in pulling the boat into better shape. It's now time to square away the transom so the fit of the inwale to transom rib butt can be determined. But that's where I have problems because of the transom bend.


Adding some pictures for clarity:
The two top of the transome parts are screwed together but not connect with strength to anything else. There is one screw going through the outwale, through the oak rib possibly extending into the end grain of the inner top transom support. The back piece is only connected to the inner piece so it sort of floats on top of the transom. The back top piece had a half of a dovetail into the outwale so all in all the two top transom pieces just hang there together. What gives those pieces their strength are the side braces from the inwale to transom.

 

[trouts2]

Finally got the seats in which fixed the shape of the boat enough to adjust the fit the inwale. The problem with the angle fit described above was mostly due to twist in the inwale. The inwales were swapped and both were much better fits on the exchanged sides requiring only slight beveling on one inwale for a length of about 15 ribs at the bow flare.

This is a new one for me, all galvanized nails are not the same. Porter Cable galvanized staples have a note in the packaging saying not for outside use. It turns out there are various levels of galvanizing and some are not outdoor grade.

Did some more testing on the strength of the crown staples. On unscientific pullout tests with cedar ribs on Oak nailed with ring nails and crown staples. The ring nails hold the Cedar and Oak tighter to each other, to hold better and required more force to remove/break of the cedar rib.
When pulling a rib of Oak the crown nails seem to make the cedar crack and break faster than the ring nails. But the holding power of the crown staples in Oak is plenty. Installing the inwales with the air gun went very quickly and both inwales are solidly attached.
I think all the banging for the ring nails would have damaged some replacement tips or loosened some of the older ribs.

Decided to go with forcing the transom curve back in place. I’m hoping that the distortion caused over the years by the motor may resolve itself. It might be that the ribs under the keelson have taken an upward set over time and that the force now against it from the new Oak braces on top of the transom may cause the ribs to find their original shape.

 

[trouts2]

The deck is in but would have been better if the inwales were drilled and counter sunk before it was put on. There was not enough room to get a counter sink bit in cleanly with the top strake in the way. Used stainless screws.

Quite a few half ribs being replaced. They are being glued in rather than clinched due to the Kevlar cover. The bricks and stones were the best I could come up with for holding down the half ribs. Not sure if they’ll hold when the bottom flexes.

The inside top transom brace normally ends at the top of the V’s. Since the top strake was lowered previously the brace was extended below the V’s by quite a bit for added strength for the motor. The brace is also thicker so extends out from the V’s. The covered sections of the V’s will have to get an insert to mount the motor pads holders.

The inside last rib against the transom was cut flush on one side and the rotted section on the other added to to get flush with the top strake. Normally that rib would extend to the height of the inwale and gets a screw through the inwale. I don’t think that’s essential for strength so cut both sides flush and extened the top of the transom brace to fill in.
A screw could be run from the top of the transom brace into the rib top but I’m not sure if that would add much. Possibly the Kevlar corner wrap will help make up the missing strength.
The top outside transom brace will end up covering the end of the outwale and will get curved to end at the outwale end. Quite a bit of room was given to the inwale to transom brace to allow for expansion. Pennyan left room there but not enough in some cases.

Into day two of the outwales soaking. Not much left to do, add a few more half ribs, fix the rest of the broken ribs, put on the outwale and transom braces then sand and varnish.

 

[trouts2]

Got most of the prior issues got resolved. The gunwales were installed 1/4 of an inch lower to accommodate the prior lowering of the shear strake and all the rib tips cut to match.
The transom top braces were beefed up and pulled in the bowed transom which over a few weeks came back to shape, seems strong and should not be a problem.
The transom to gunwale braces were also beefed up and should hold the transom with a 5hp. They were made with 1/8th laminations and thicker than the originals. They flex less than the originals. I had a lot of trouble to get a clean bend without any grain lifting on the curves. I bent full stock and also 3/8ths stock for a two piece lamination. I bent about 6 pieces in all and got grain lifting with all. They were all steamed at 211 for an hour. Even with overbending springback was also a problem. With the 1/8th laminations spring back was no problem. I’ve got two more boats to do and will go with laminated braces for the ease of bending, no springback and getting a stronger brace.
Given the rib problems I used a thicker and wider keel, 1 1/4th wide by ¾ high. I’m hoping that will strengthen the floor. Given the stiffness I could not run the full length so shorten the front section of the keel. I’m not sure if that will give me tracking problems.
Put on a slightly larger rear transom plate to help out the old plywood transom.
Ran out the deck and gunwales to a point which will be covered with the brass rail. Because of that the old rail will have to be cut and installed as two pieces due to the sharp bend.
The inside still has a few coats of varnish to go and the outside just getting ready for it’s paint.
Had big problems with the brass screws into oak. I was using 1/8 pre-drill for #8’s going the full length of the screw and still had problems with stripping heads. Even with backing out a stainless screw and putting in a brass screw a few stripped. I ended up installing quite a few SS. Had the same problem with #10’s using a drill about the same size as the 10 shank. I did a lot of checking online and the charts for taps and drill sizes never mention wood type. I’ve never had such a problem before but don’t generally much screwing into hardwoods. Some of the archive posts suggest silicone brass as stronger which I did not see in the stores. If the boat turns out well and becomes a favorite I backout the SS and install silicone brass and hopefully not strip heads.

 

[trouts2]

Finally finished:
Bottom of back transom plate installed, all White Oak parts with one coat of orange flake shellac, 3 coats of varnish on the inside, coat of Pettit Unipoxy 1328 on the hull and stripe....currently looking around for decals or something to add in place of them. Unsure what to do about the Unipoxy. It's dull like the usual cartopper light green but scuff marks easily. Those that don't rub out can be painted over and the paint blends in fine. An overcoat of varnish would be more protection but but shows all the rough places on the hull.
Use the Pettit Unipoxy (non-ablative) as it's supposed to be tough for trailering and pulling up on a beach. The boat won't be tied up and used from a dock maybe the Unipoxy was a good paint but I'm not really sure. The only thing I'm sure about was it is expensive.

The tips were scarfed which took forever. Difficult was fitting a 4-6 inch rib patchs inside the boat and having to lean in with the chisel to make cuts with my arms extended holding the shaft with both hands. A bunch of rib cracks were repaired and about 15 half ribs replaced. All were done with Titebond III which I hope hold. At first I could rock the gunwales and watch many cracks open. Now none do. The test will be how the floor holds up when bouncing over waves. Worse case the boat will be useable for several more years.

It was an exceptional learning experience and the help received is very much appreciated. About half the time spent on this was reading through the archive on how to do things so quite a bit of information coming from many prior posters.

There are two other 14 foot cartoppers here which need repair and the repairs on them which were thought to be just about impossible now seem very do-able and much less involved than the repairs to the 12 footer. It's been a fun trip and think you for all the help.
David

 

[trouts2]

Got the 12 footer out on the lake for the last two days, a 10 mile trip and a 17 mile trip with a 4hp engine. The winds were high, white caps on the lake with wave height 2 and a half feet. Lots of time spent going into the wind in the open part of the lake so very rough going. I kept the boat in slapping mode for extended periods punishing the glued in ribs. The impacts were brutal and seemed like just below where a rib or strake would crack. All repairs held. I worried most about the half ribs but they were fine. The boat will never see that much rough treatment again and should easly last 15-20 years.
Thanks for the help.
David