Removing inside finish and old fiberglass questions.

[trouts2]

This is my first post. It finally time to repair my 14 foot Pennyan cartopper, LXH51320. Once pristine over the years it's had a few accidents so in rough shape. While looking into what's involved a friend gave me his 12' cartopper in pretty bad shape. The plan is to attempt fixing the 12' and get some experience before working on mine.

Note: the 12' has severely rotted gunnel's, broken ribs and may need a strake or two replaced (not positive about the strakes).
1. The 12' had been fiberglassed many years ago and job very well done. A section of fiberglass at the transom top has lifted and cleanly, about 8 inches along the top and extending down 4-6 inches. That could be repaired and the boat left in fiberglass. I'm not sure if the fiberglass job has penetrated the wood. The question is would it be possible to strip the whole boat of fiberglass or will doing that destroy the strakes?

2. Is it possible to replace a rib with the hull fiberglassed? If yes, how?

3. The 14' has it's canvas removed. What's the best way to remove ribs on that?

4. The 12' was spar varnished 10-15 years ago and now crinkled and in bad shape. What's the best method of removing the old varnish and original finish. It would be good if some bio-degradable solvent was available in the strength needed. Anyone have any suggestions for what can be used?
The 14' is still in pretty good original shape but the interior could use a refinish also. What would be best to use on the 14'.

I'll try and post some pictures later.
Thanks,
David

 

[pklonowski]

1. Stripping fiberglass can be an extremely tedious, though not difficult, job. A heat gun (hair dryer on steroids) and a putty knife are the only tools you need... but patience is critical. If you go too fast, you'll start pulling strips of wood of with the 'glass. You also have to be careful not to ignite the resin-coated glass or the boat.

4. Several of us have tried the environmentally safer strippers, and they work much less effectively than the nasty stuff. It took 2&1/2 gallons of safer stuff to strip 5 or 6 coats of paint from the interior of my Old Town... and that only got about 1/4 of the boat done. A half gallon of the nasty stuff cleared the rest of the boat, in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of the effort.

I'll let others with more experience comment on #2 & 3.

 

[MGC]

David,

With respect to rib replacement....you cannot replace the ribs with glass on the outside of your boat.
To remove the current ribs you will need to pull the tacks that hold the planking to the ribs.
You may be able to straighten the tacks from the inside, but the heads need to be pulled to the outside to remove them.
For replacement you need to be able to tack the new ribs in, from the outside.
You either need to leave the ribs as they are and the glass on, or remove the glass to replace the ribs.
My guess (without seeing the boat) is that the ribs were broken before it was glassed. They probably do not have much structural value now (with a glass shell) and could be left as is is you do not remove the glass.

Since these boats are built almost like canoes, our restorers "bible" will probably hold all of the information that you need for doing the repairs.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Wood-Canvas-Canoe-Construction/dp/0884480461

Good luck.

 

[trouts2]

Paul,
From what you’ve said it looks like the glue does not penetrate into the wood and it’s possible with care to get the fiberglass removed. That’s good to know as it will give me the option. I’ll probably pickup the boat tomorrow and go over it in detail.

I’ve had about the same luck with the softer agents as you had. Even ZipStrip does not seem as potent as it used to be.
The issue is partly environment friendly. Getting inbetween the ribs and the bow area with no room would be very hard to cleanup. I was thinking an EV friendly remover would be good as I might be able to hose it off to get the wood cleaned. I’ll be working the boat on horses in the back yard. Doing a table is fairly messy but easy but a ribbed boat lots of tight spots.

MGC,
OK, the thought was possible there was some way people generally used I was unaware of. I guess not so with the glass on the ribs remain.
Thanks for the link. I’ll bone up.

Hopefully will post some pictures.
David

 

[Grandlaker]

Dave
You can replace ribs with fiberglass on the hull. I have done it numerous times. With a thin flat bar pry the rib from the planks on the inside of the boat ( It should split of the tacks) with the rib completely removed you will need to cut the tacks flush with the inside of the plank's. I use an end grinder with a cutting wheel on it . When you got a good clean and smooth surface you take a 1/6 th" drill bit in a drill and from the inside of the canoe drill out through the plank and glass with the pattern for new tacks. Then take a countersink and hit all the holes on the outside cutting the glass just enough to recess the head of your tacks when clinching in the new rib. Then patch the glass over the head's of the tacks.

I have also put new ribs in with epoxy to planking without disturbing the glass

If You want to try striping the glass first I have found that the old polly resin don't stick real good to wood. with it cold NO heat start a strip about 4" to 6" wide and pull. You will be amazed at how easy it peels

 

[trouts2]

Grandlaker,
Good to know. I wasn’t sure if drilling or gluing was done or reasonable. You’ve done it and those methods work so that expands my options. Actually it does not seem like much work to clear out a number of ribs. That amount of work seems pretty small in comparison to ripping, shaping and steaming the ribs so not a big deal.

Good to hear that people have removed fiberglass without nuking the strakes. Looks like a full restore could be done with ripping the glass or stick with a patch by leaving the glass on a fixing the rest. I’ll have to noodle all this and come up with a plan for each boat.

By the way, the Grandlaker is a great boat. Many years ago I spent three different weeks at Grand Lake camping around on the lakes. The first time me and my buddy used the 12 foot Pennyan which will get reworked. While up there we got familiar with the Grandlader and the next two trips up rented one and loved it. It seems like a perfect design for the conditions on that lake with lots of room for gear and great speed like a Stiletto.

 

[MGC]

Dave
You can replace ribs with fiberglass on the hull.

I have also put new ribs in with epoxy to planking without disturbing the glass

Learn something every day! That is an interesting way to skin the cat.

 

[trouts2]

Got some pictures which hopefully will show up.
They are of the 12 footer. It turns out the boat was not fiberglassed. It was done over with kevlar. A prior owner worked at a place experimenting with kevlar on military helmets. He used that to cover the boat. What he used as the glue is unknown.
The bottom is much better (flatter) than I remember from several years ago. Outside of the top of the transom the covering seems to be in good shape.
The rotted tips of the ribs is a problem.
Any suggestion for a restore would be appreciated.

 

[trouts2]

Pictures of the 14 footer. Any suggestions on the restore would be appreciated.

 

[trouts2]

Frustrated...

 

[trouts2]

frustrated...

 

[Gil Cramer]

The resin on the 12' cartopper is likely epoxy since kevlar is the reinforcement. Because of that I would make this a good user boat. If the kevlar covering is not loose from the planking, I would go ahead and use it, only repairing the loose area on the transom. The interior varnish would look better if it were stripped, but it doesn't have to be. If it is scrubbed with TSP and a nylon brush, most loose varnish will be removed. Replace any broken rib as described above. They are so small that they will bend easily. Scarph in new tips on the ribs that need it be cutting or grinding a long joint on the back and epoxying a new piece on to it. Use the 14 foot boat pieces as patterns and replace the inwales, transom top brace, and transom braces. Sand and Varnish the interior. sand and paint the exterior. Soak and pre-bend the inwales and outwales around the bow of the 14' boat- they're practically the same shape.

 

[trouts2]

Gil: >>“I would make this a good user boat.”

After getting a little more familiar with what would be involved for a “quality” rebuild I think you’re right and the best way to go is repairing the Kevlar and attempt repairs from the inside.

Gil: >>”Soak and pre-bend the inwales and outwales around the bow of the 14' boat- they're practically the same shape.”

Can the gunnels be bent with a few days of soaking, put in an over bent form and spring back to shape or is steaming the only way to do that? I’ll be making a steambox for the ribs.

Gil:>>If it is scrubbed with TSP and a nylon brush

Glad you mentioned the TSP. I though about some sort of neutralizer but am not familiar with available products.

Gil:>>The interior varnish would look better if it were stripped, but it doesn't have to be.

I decided to strip to try and save some character. It’s turning out to be quite a bit of busy work. I’ve posted a few progress pictures. I’m using StripX which is working very well but requires a number of applications. The pictures are after the third application. The temps are a factor being lower than recommended so I can’t fault StripX. I think it will take five applications before getting it all removed. The boat had it’s original stain, finish coats and over-coated later with varnish which is all cracked and flakes off easily.

Below is the order I came up with. If anyone has any comments they would be welcome.

1 Strip interior
2 Remove seats and strip
3 Bend ribs and gunnels
4 Replace broken ribs and half ribs (from the inside)
5 Repair strakes (from the inside)
6 Repair kevlar at gunnels on sides and transom
7 Install gunnel in-rail and outer-rail
8 Install transom top braces (2 straight pieces)
9 Install gunnel transome braces (2)
10 Install deck
11 Remove and install keel
12 Paint
13 Install exterior transom guard, oar lock holders, seats, brass guard.

Also, the bent “rib” that runs on the inside edge of the transom is rotted badly by the top by the gunnel, both sides are rotted. Is replacing the rotted sections only ok? It seems like taking out that whole piece would be a nasty undertaking.
If installing a section will not give a lot of support should other new members be added up there to connect the transom parts and sides?

 

[Gil Cramer]

The inwales and outwales should bend after soaking for a few days. Originally, they would have been either oak or spruce. I don't know where you're located, but I have at least one pair of oak inwales in the shop-no outwales. TSP, tri-sodium phosphate, is nothing more than a detergent (similar to original Tide). It's not a stripper.

I've never used Stripx stripper. I have always tried to use a methylene chloride based water wash stripper. A common problem with stripping is to not use enough to keep the surface continuously wet . Most varnished canoes take 2 gallons of stripper, and a 12' cartopper should take about the same. Since removing varnish is a chemical reaction temperature is quite important, but the warmer the temp, the faster the stripper evaporates.
I would replace the inwale before installing new ribs in order to provide easy clamping. I would also replace the seat cleats and a temporary brace to keep the boat from spreading. If the serial number starts with WXH, the support under the center seat is not original, but was needed because the seat needs repair. If you have more questions you can email me at woodencanoeshop@yahoo.com

 

[Gil Cramer]

I almost forgot. Scarph the tips of the bent oak transom/ bottom frame.

 

[frogahern]

Hi David, as far as stripping goes I use ( I am not making these names up!) Rock Miracle stripper which is very nasty but does the job and after snappy teak-nu two part teak cleaner which evens out the wood. They are both expensive. The transom looks a little thin on your boat. I would be reluctant to use a outboard on it. Think about replacing it. Even 2 layers of marine ply epoxyed would be enough or some mahogany or oak. Your can mail me $ .02 Cheers Mike..........

 

[Gil Cramer]

Starting about 1950 Penn Yan used 1/4" Fir marine plywood transoms for all of their canvas covered boats. The swift was rated for 20 hp and 1/4"plywood was the standard transom . The WXH model cartopper, as this one appears to be, was rated for 5 hp, but I wouldn't use one. The transom is missing some bracing which will stiffen it considerably. As Mike indicates" it looks a little thin", but that was original. Penn Yan was an offshoot of the aircraft industry so many of their boats were built quite light.

 

[trouts2]

Gil,
Got more stripping done and it’s looking pretty good. So far I’ve used 2 ¼ gallons and it will take the rest of the 3/4 to get it to 100%. If the temps were better and had the brushes I picked up at the start your estimate would be just right, 2 gallons for the 12 footer.

>>I would replace the inwale before installing new ribs in order to provide easy clamping.
OK, makes sense. BTW, The model is a WXH51660 and the seat support added by my friend years ago.

>>Scarph the tips of the bent oak transom/ bottom frame.
Thanks, I was not sure if that should be done or replace the whole frame.

>>Frogahern The transom looks a little thin on your boat.
>>Gil, 1/4" Fir marine plywood transoms

Although a 3hp would be a good match for the 12 foot my friend and I used 5hp’s on the 12 and 14 foot cartoppers. Both boats have loosened transom parts and broken transom to gunwale braces.
The 12 footer’s transom plywood has a very slight outward set from the load over the years. Both boats were used on big Maine lakes and would take a pounding troling and getting knocked around by waves.
Replacing the transom would involve opening up the side cover Kevlar transom overlap and lots of tacks to removed. I think the existing plywood will stand up once the oak transom top frames are renewed. The back transom plate will also be replace and spread the load a bit.

Another light application or two of the stripper and a neturalizer and the stripping will be done.

Thanks for the info and help.
David

 

[trouts2]

I've looked back through the archives about post stripping bleatching. Tt's tough to judge which might be the best specifically as you don't really know what initial condition of the wood was posters are talking about or if different prior strippers have an effect.
But, it seems like for cleaning/brightening/bleaching the general consensus is oxalic acid and two part teak cleaners like Teak-nu are the best with Teak-nu getting slightly better reviews than oxalic.

I've posted two pictures of the seats. What would be the best to do with the seats, sand, oxalic, or Teak-nu? The boat has a lot of flaws (Pennyan 12) so the restore target is not perfection. I'd like to end up with a boat that looks kind of original and in pretty good shape. Will these two products deal with the black checkering on the seats?

It might be too hard to tell from the photo of the boat but would either one do much for the boat? The picture is post final neutralizing wash. Just for reverence would the two quart version of the Teak-nu do the 12 footer insides?

 

[trouts2]

Making some progress on the 12 foot Penn Yan cartopper repairs but there are problems.

First the progress then the problems.

Picked up a used wallpaper steamer off Craigslist for $25 and some PVC for a box.
So far 8 ribs have been bent and two inwales. No breaks and bent easily. Ribs and inwales were soaked for a few days prior to bending. The inwales probably could have been bent with just the soaking.

The bending form for the ribs was the 14 foot cartopper. The form for the White Oak gunwales was made up with a bit of overbend. The spring back on ribs and gunwales was minimal so no problems.

Made up a transom to inwale brace bending form for prebending soaked 1/8th White Oak strips for a laminated brace. After a bunch get bent that form will be used for making the laminated brace.

Scarfing the rib tops is coming along but slow going. A jig was made to cut the new scarf piece but the existing ribs are being done by eye. The boat is covered with kevlar so the top strake is not being removed for access. Cutting the existing rib is done leaning into the boat and chiseling up. The clinched tacks are being ground out with a Dremmel and small stone if they are in the high part of the scarf or cut off with a small diamond wheel if in the low part. The glue used is TIghtbond III which I hope will be strong enough.

That's the progress part. If there are any suggestions about what I've done I'd appreciate them. The forum search engine is fantastic and I've read quite bit of archived posts but not always sure if I have things right.