Plastic and Fiberglass

[samb]

As (once again) I will not be at the assembly this year to join any discussion about this I will give my thoughts here.

From my perspective, I visit the forums for information and discussion of wooden canoes. Like many I have a plastic boat for use in more scratchy water and if I needed information or advice I would be looking for experts in royalex canoes rather than asking here. Having said that, if people ask me a question, I will always help if I can - even by pointing out that I’m not the best person to ask! I think that word that the WCHA is the go to source for information about Old Town canoes (especially build sheet information) is probably to blame for the recent plastic boat enquiries.

Dan's site is a superb reference and guide, but the discussion forums are somewhere where I can get opinions and ask for specific details from people who know and have experience. The two sources are complimentary.

As far as the advert pictures go, like MGC, I wouldn’t be too interested in having makes and models filed seperately. If I want specific information about a model, I would use the forum search facility or ask on the forum: Pictures or text from an advert would probably not give me the specific information I was looking for unless it was colour or design ideas. It maybe a daft idea, but rather than going to the work of sorting then filing the classified section, would it be possible to make that whole section of the website text searchable?

……. And no, a balsa wood core does not make a wooden boat and neither do the wooden thwarts on my plastic boat!

Sam

 

[David Satter]

I replace a lot of wood trim, gunwales,decks and seats on fiberglass canoes. Most of those people found me through WCHA

 

[MGC]

Mike,
I disagree about the Forums being the prime resource for info about wood and canvas canoes. I certainly don't see it that way. Dan's site is great no doubt. I mean, I just shared some photos with him a month ago or so but, the photos are limited to only decks. That being said, he is only one person if someone reached out with a question. This forum has us for different points, views and perspectives. Never-mind the physical canoes along with tape measures and additional photos.

I really like your suggestion of cataloging ad photos and a tool to organize them by manufacturer. That could be a big help in any restoration.
Zack

Zack,
What I actually said was that this forum is not the prime resource. Dan's is now. Having said that and as you correctly note, Dans site is not a forum. That is its shortcoming and why I lobbied so hard for WCHA to take an interest in being that prime resource.
What I was told then is that this site is not considered to be the WCHA's preeminent communication tool, it is the Wooden Canoe magazine. It looks like there was some progress made there as it now has more regular contributions from some key board members. What it lacks is everything that shows up here and the content that is on Dans sight, and of course, a way to access and research from it's pages. If you have a sea chest full of old issues and a good memory and possibly the now very old index, there is really good information on those pages.

I belong to quite a few organizations and clubs, often as a board member. What I see and what is very common is that membership participation in most groups is very limited. If there are 10% of the membership who are seriously active, you are doing well. Board positions often end up populated with a warm body. It is bloody hard to find volunteers and even harder to find truly knowledgeable ones. I'm not saying that is the case here. I am trying to make the point that the stray cats that find their way here because they own an Old Town rubber dingy are already more active on this site that many of our board members. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. That is why I will always offer my modern canoe help here even if it is not aligned with our mission statement. Exposure to the wooden canoes, however it happens is an opportunity to get another person interested in our hobby. At assembly, we are a stacked house. It's great for the membership but does not do all that much to spread the word.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

So what happens to the info if Dan (or Benson or anybody) were to be gone tomorrow?
Depending on 1 person for a source of info is a very bad idea.

Well, not for some of us,
I have probably read less than 4 sense the new (poor) format and the smaller type that I can't read was instigated.
When they come, I scan them for anything interesting and usually just put them on the pile, never to be seen again.

What I was told then is that this site is not considered to be the WCHA's preeminent communication tool, it is the Wooden Canoe magazine.

 

[Benson Gray]

Depending on 1 person for a source of info is a very bad idea.

Agreed, Dan and I have shared most of our important information with each other. Things like the Wayback Machine can be helpful when recovering lost web sites as demonstrated here recently with Jack Wagner's Chestnut site. I also periodically use various search engines to see if any interesting information about old canoes has been published recently on the internet. I had personally saved copies of Jack's Chestnut catalogs many years ago so nothing critical was lost when his website went away.

I hope that you have shared at least one copy of your un-redacted Seliga information with someone else so it doesn't get lost. I would be heppy to keep a copy for you under any non-disclosure requirements that you feel are appropriate. I'm also willing to share some of my information if any of that interests you. Let me know if you want to pursue this further. Thanks,

Benson

 

[patrick corry]

Since the increased involvement of members is suggested above, I will chime in.

Exposure to the wooden canoes, however it happens is an opportunity to get another person interested in our hobby.

I think this statement answers the original poster's question as a reason to tolerate non- wood canoe questions or interest.

It maybe a daft idea, but rather than going to the work of sorting then filing the classified section, would it be possible to make that whole section of the website text searchable?

This seems to be a reasonable way (if possible) to make Classifieds information accessible without requiring lots of work on the part of Admins.


Though a canoeist since I was 12 in Boy Scouts, it is only within the last several years that I acquired my first wood canvas canoe, and subsequently four more for restoration or refurbishment. At least two are 100 years old, one of which needs only paint and outwales after restoration to be fully serviceable. I tend to become immersed in the minutiae of style, workmanship, and detail in my interests/hobbies, so searchable text and photos here are appreciated.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Thanks Benson,
I will think about your offer.

I "think" I gave a unredacted copy to one of Joe's family members, but I suspect that there is little interest by the member in maintaining the Record.

Dan

 

[1905Gerrish]

You could write an article for Wooden Canoe and encourage people to contact you and share their opinions. You could setup a survey with something like Surveymonkey.com and see if the organization would be willing to distribute it to their membership email list. You could post your question in the Facebook group known as the Fans of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association which currently has over 6100 members. You could add a poll question to a new thread here in the forum. I suspect that you would get lots of opinions with any of these options.

A similar question came up in the 1990s when many people were asking if fiberglass strip built canoes should be considered 'wooden canoes' by the WCHA. The board at that time decided that this question would be left to the individual. Their concept was that you could decide if it was a wooden canoe and they weren't going to force the issue. I had recently purchased a fiberglass Breakout design canoe that a friend delivered to me at the Assembly in Keuka. My original plan was to hide this canoe so it would avoid creating any controversy. The board's decision led me to decide that it might be fun to put it out on the green with a printed note in the bottom saying "This canoe has a balsa wood core in the bottom of the hull. Does that make it a wood canoe?" The general consensus from most people who walked by it was "no" but I was not ostracized either, as I had feared.



I agree that forum participation is key but don't have an easy answer about how to increase it. Some questions about the forum could be another good topic to add to your article/survey/Facebook/forum poll questions.



I think that there is general agreement that this would be a wonderful research tool. It still isn't clear how to best implement it and who is willing to take on a project like this.

Benson

​

Benson,
You state some great ideas here. There are certainly many folks trying to get me to write articles in the journal. That time is approaching I feel.

The one idea that stands out to me that I take issue with that you mention is the " Fans of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association" Facebook page. As we are both aware, we post and are regular commenters on the page. It's easy and available in seconds on a mobile device. But, why would I give a non-WCHA member a chance to voice their opinion on any topic involving the direction of the WCHA? I was not aware of the 6100 followers of the page. The 1000's of freeloaders that are almost members of the WCHA, they just need a little extra push and the membership could and would be stronger than ever. That should be involved in a different discussion though.

I stand by my comment about ads in the journal about the forums and even the digital for sale section as a great starting point.
Zack

 

[Benson Gray]

The one idea that stands out to me that I take issue with that you mention is the "Fans of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association" Facebook page.

Yes, this Facebook group has been the source of much consternation since it was first established. Some numbers inflation is to be expected. I am a member of the WCHA but my wife and daughter are not. All three of us are members of the Facebook Fans group. There are also likely to be a huge number of bots, scammers, and others there who probably have no interest in the WCHA. My hope is that some of these people will become excited about wooden canoes and eventually join the WCHA. It seems unlikely that all 6100 of them will. There has always been a concern that answering questions in the Facebook group is drawing potential traffic away from this forum. I don't have any great solutions to address these concerns.

Benson

 

[samb]

Might it be possible to have an explanation of how the modern old town numbers work (presuming there is a standard system) so that people could do their own dating.
Perhaps it could have a permanent place at the top of the 'serial number search' section and also in the FAQs

Sam

 

[Benson Gray]

Might it be possible to have an explanation of how the modern old town numbers work (presuming there is a standard system)

The information at https://www.usps.org/national/safety/HIN/HIN.pdf describes how the modern hull identification numbers work for Old Town and other builders. A new FAQ might help people better figure this out on their own but I suspect that there will still be some questions. The information at the thread below has more detail but that is probably too much information for a FAQ.

Benson

Serial Number Madness

Many canoes and boats have serial numbers but this summary might help explain how confusing these can be. It appears that Morris, Old Town, and Carleton all started assigning serial numbers around 1900. Kennebec started in 1909, Joe Seliga in 1938, Shell Lake in 1940, White around 1946, the...

forums.wcha.org

 

[samb]

Cheers Benson. I was just wondering about ways to help themselves find information. There will always be people who don't / won't read and will choose to ask!
Sam