Need advice; restoring my 1927 Otca

[Woody Starr]

Originally, I had planned to sand and repaint, and to install a new keel since the old one was pretty beat up.

I removed the two brass stem bands and the old keel easily, started sanding and came across this small problem. It appears that the canvas was split when it was installed (it was re-canvassed in 1985) and that's the main reason it has had a very slow leak as long as I can remember. I assume it was split when installed because it's entirely under the keel and hidden, and there are clearly canvas tacks holding the split sides in place. Also, there was lots of putty in that gap.

I hadn't planned to re-canvas the canoe right now, just do the keel, re-seal and paint. Frankly, I'm not sure I can do the canvas (deficiencies in shop space, time, know-how) and also slightly afraid that I'm opening a can of worms by removing the old. It's got a few minor cracks in ribs, a little rot on the top of the decks and the gunwale ends are slightly worn; that's what's visible! As far as I know, the boat is all original, except one thwart and the cane. It was given to my grandmother for her 16th birthday, so I really want to keep it!

Is it time for a complete restoration, or can I squeeze another season or two with only refinishing? Or, perhaps there's another option I don't know...

Thanks for viewing.

 

[Dave Osborn]

IMHO if you remove and replace the canvas, take the time to do a full restoration. The only time to make proper repairs is with the canvas off because all parts are accessible. It would be counter productive to canvas it without a full restoration.
We’ve helped many folks with few skills repair and restore their canoes. There are books available as well as YouTube vids to help, too.
From your photos, I see that the canvas at the top of the stem, as well as gunwale tips are looking compromised. Possibly rot.
The canvas is nearly 40 years old. It’s probably time.
If you want to patch it to keep it going, your leaks will probably be ok if you use bedding compound to seal the keel.

 

[Woody Starr]

Thanks Dave!

I had a feeling this was the answer! I also don't want the compromised areas getting worse, and I think if I use the canoe they will.

 

[1905Gerrish]

I would add that's a pretty shady way to repair the canvas if the owner was not informed of the repair and paid for a proper recanvasing. I'm glad my name isn't on that and I agree with Dave to do it right like it should have been all along.

 

[Woody Starr]

Hey Zach, unfortunately you're correct! I would have never noticed this faulty repair unless the keel was removed.

As it stands now, I'm going to remove the old canvas and assess other issues that need addressing.

One question, really a philosophical one at that - is it generally better to preserve as many old (original) parts as possible or do you all recommend new materials? Seems like new brass screws isn't a leap, but replacing wood that's "serviceable" ? Obviously, broken and or rotten wood should go, but how far do you all recommend taking that? I'm fishing for opinions, there's no wrong answer, and I know "it depends".

I'll post a couple more photos once the canvas is off...

 

[Dave Osborn]

Woody,
Personally, I’m all for originality. If I can fix or repair an original part and maintain strength, I do it.
I do backside rib repairs to fix cracked ribs…..hundreds of them. No failures that I’m aware of.
I replace bad planking with planking harvested from “donor” canoes, or rob planks from the stem areas to place in an area that is more open to the eye and the patina is maintained. I’ve also repaired a good amount of planking, gluing the cracks together to reuse it.
I want my restorations to look like there have been no repairs. I’m never impressed with a restoration where new wood sticks out like a sore thumb against the original patina.
When it comes to rot, there is no fix for that IMHO. You can goober it up with epoxy or wood hardener I suppose, but I will replace anything rotten.
So in general, that is my philosophy.

 

[Woody Starr]

Thank you Dave! And down the rabbit hole, I go...

Monday & Tuesday I carefully removed the gunwales, they're intact and will be reused.

Today I removed the old canvas. I was surprised to see only one cracked plank and so many tiny tacks! Was it customary for builders or restorers to use copper, brass and steel tacks? It seems I have a mixture of all three, well at least the steel ones appear to only have been used for the canvas. Many tacks have that nice green patina, so I guess they're copper? I'd like to utilize Brass for the new canvas ( I may use the boat in salt water again) but is copper also used? Any pros/cons to either?

I started picking out the old putty from the area the canvas was ripped, and to uncover the joints between stems and planks. I tried hard to only take away the old putty but of course a few small pieces of wood plank came up also. :-/ Anyone have an opinion on whether testing the integrity of the stem wood can be done like a dentist checking for cavities or is it purely visual? Also, I think the white discoloration at the end is possibly from old paint, it doesn't appear to be rotten.

 

[Dave Osborn]

Woody
The white on the stems is filler. Not exactly sure why it was applied there, but it is not uncommon.
For your vintage there should commonly be brass tacks only. There may be steel nails at the ribs to fasten ribs to the inwale. Anything else could have been added during a recanvas or repair.
You are doing the right thing by picking the putty from between the ribs. Add some heat to make it release without taking planking with it.
The voids by the stems can be filled in with fairing compound.
Take a tool and poke around the stems to see if there is rot .

 

[MGC]

That vintage Old Town would have been built with brass tacks throughout. Steel tacks were used when there was a brass shortage during WWII.
Copper tacks were used by other earlier builders including Rushton but would not be period correct for your hull. It is very possible that some copper was used during an earlier refurbishment of your boat.
Salt water is not kind to brass tacks. If you use it in saltwater you must be certain that your boat is well varnished properly rinsed out after use. Even so, salt will attack the tacks and cause dezincification. Hulls that have been heavily used in saltwater often require replacement of most of the tacks when they are restored. What a nightmare!
Yes, probe away with that pick. If the stem is punky, now is the time to find out. If it is, you may have to splice in new wood, replace the stem or if it's not too bad, load it up with Git Rot...

 

[Greg Nolan]

Copper tacks may not be "period correct" but they are the thing to use if you are going to use the canoe in salt water. The dezincification that occurs with brass tack not only weakens/destroys the tack, it also causes discoloration of the wood that has been tacked down. Copper, though harder to get, will not suffer this fate in salt water. Replacing the original steel nails/tacks and screws that were used in the original construction of canoes during WWII is generally considered a good idea during restoration -- replacing rusted steel with new steel eventually leads to rusted steel again. and most folks don't think this makes much sense (except, perhaps, with the unusual canoe of extraordinary historical value). So too with tacks -- most canoes don't see salt water, so brass is generally the way to go. But if your canoe is going to see salt water, use something that won't fail, esthetically and structurally, in the future.

 

[Michael Grace]

The white on the stems is filler.

I always assumed (but don't know for certain) that the white on the planking ends at the stems is white lead, put there to help prevent rot in the stems, planking ends, and/or the ends of the canvas. It could be lead-based filler, of course; just seems like there must be a purpose, and rot prevention seems likely. It's fairly common on Old Towns from that era but not found on of all of them. I'm careful around it in case its a swath of white lead just itching to get into someone's lungs.

 

[Woody Starr]

I always assumed (but don't know for certain) that the white on the planking ends at the stems is white lead, put there to help prevent rot in the stems, planking ends, and/or the ends of the canvas. It could be lead-based filler, of course; just seems like there must be a purpose, and rot prevention seems likely. It's fairly common on Old Towns from that era but not found on of all of them. I'm careful around it in case its a swath of white lead just itching to get into someone's lungs.

It's curious, only seems to have been applied on one side, and on one end only. The wood there appears just as solid as anywhere else on the canoe. With your advice, I think I'll leave it alone! Thank you!

[QUOTE="Greg Nolan... But if your canoe is going to see salt water, use something that won't fail, esthetically and structurally, in the future.[/QUOTE]

It's more of a case of, "I may use it in salt water, and want to have no problems if I do." Also, I don't want to remove old tacks if I don't have to, the majority of the hull is in good shape; no broken ribs or punctured / cracked planks. But I like your idea of at least getting the steel tacks out, I think there's an easy way to determine which tacks are steel.

With all the canvas tacks removed and the old putty (mostly) picked out of the stem areas, I'm going to attempt to repair the top edges of the planks rather than replace them. This is possibly the fourth time this boat has been recanvassed and those rib ends plank tops are looking (to my untrained eye) like they won't accept new tacks as they sit...

 

[Greg Nolan]

FYI -- If you are not familiar with the problem of salt water and brass tacks, these pictures from another forum post show "blooms" like that caused by dezincification of brass tacks -- and it affects the whole tack, not just the clenched ends on the top surface of the ribs. It can take a while for this to happen, and rinsing a canoe out well with fresh water after use in salt water will decrease (but not totally eliminate) the effect of the salt water. You have a nice canoe, and with a good restoration, it could go for another century -- if you keep it away from salt water.

To replace the steel tacks holding the canvas, brass would be fine -- but many folk prefer to use stainless or monel staples -- strong, rust free, easier to install, and not in view, even if not "original."

 

[Woody Starr]

Today I began to carefully remove a few planks and the bow deck to expose the extent of rot in the bow end of the top of the stem. It's not as bad as I had thought but worse than I'd hoped (trying to manage expectations!)

What was really frustrating was that all along the top and presumably hidden under the outwale was nothing but steel nails. Man are those things a challenge to take out, since a) they're not tapered; b) they're pretty well corroded and rusty; and worst of all; c) the heads disintegrate when I tried get the tool underneath! grrr. With patience, a sharp pry bar and sharp wire snips however, I was able to persevere and take out just the top side row of planks back to about the bow thwart, which includes two planks down from the top of the stem. I'm going to have to splice in new stem material and likely new inwale pieces as well. The deck (at least on top) is ok, but the little bent piece that forms the coaming is broken in several places. I like the suggestion that I read here in another thread of adding a sub-deck for strength. I'll probably use some white oak I have on hand but I am open to other suggestions.

Apparently, someone also used steel nails to attach the inwale to the ribs along the entire length of the canoe. Below the gunwales, tho, it's all brass tacks. It's hard to imagine this was done during a restoration but as @Greg says that likely wasn't original. Hard to know.

So here's my dilemma: If I try to take out all the steel nails (did I mention they also go the length of the curve of the stem on each side for the front of the planks?) I will most certainly damage the planks and create larger holes in the ribs just bloodying my knuckles and cursing my way through. But, if I leave them the rust & corrosion won't stop, some are well on their way to failure already. It's only the steel nails I'm considering removing. The brass tacks are well clinched and some are a bit counter sunk (did they use a punch to install them?) and yet those come out much easier.

If it's just the same for y'all I think I'll keep going with this thread, the title is still applicable! ;-)

Thanks!

 

[Michael Grace]

In canoes like yours, steel nails are typical from ribs into inwales, at plank ends into the stems, at the top of planking, and at least sometimes from through the tips of the inwales into the tops of the stems. This is the way your canoe was built. Getting rid of all that old steel out usually isn't necessary but if you can and want to, why not? If some or much of the steel is corroded to the point of disintegration you won't be able to get it out anyway. In that case, you can try to get out what you can and then add fresh fasteners.

About the sub-deck, why would you want to add that? The original decks were perfectly serviceable when they were installed and unless they are rotten now, why glom on extra material? From the surface at least, your decks look fine. They may be perfectly serviceable once you get everything cleaned up, maybe repair tips if needed, clean up the mating surfaces of the decks and inwales, and tighten attachment screws. Adding more wood underneath seems like overkill and unnecessarily adds weight. Countless canoes as old and much older than yours have been restored while retaining the original decks and they go on.

The broader point is that when we begin with something like this (canoe restoration) we often think things are worse than they really are. For example, one of the most common early worries here is that "the wood is all dry and brittle" with the implication that the cedar is beyond use. In most cases, though, after doing all the stripping, cleaning, varnishing, etc., it all comes back to a condition both looks great and functions well. Start by thoroughly stripping and cleaning the canoe, and then ask yourself (and others, like you're doing here) what can be saved vs. what must be changed out. You may be surprised how much you can keep.

 

[Dave Osborn]

Use little stainless nails in the stem. No need to pull them all. Just add a few stainless nails. Use a clinching iron on one side of the stem and hammer them from the other side. Steel nails in the stem were common in original builds.
It was common in original builds to use galvanized steel nails to attach the ribs to the inwales. If you really need to replace any, use bronze ring nails.
To remove the nails from the ribs, I drive a stiff putty knife between the rib tip and inwale and pry it back and forth. That usually pulls the nails enough that you can get ahold of them without gouging up the rib tips.