Here is a canoe that I acquired awhile ago and would like to see if I'm on track with info. It has serial number 8246, so I'm guessing it's around a 1908. Correct? Also, I'm unclear on the models that Morris built - can anyone tell me what model this is (gunwales, thwarts, decks, & seats are mahogany)? Any other info needed? Thanks!
Morris Info
- Thread starter Bonagee
- Start date
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
In the picture posted here, the painter ring is shown fastened to the stem with wood screws. I've seen another like this. Was it common for Morris to do this? I would think rivets would be a better fastner. Also, on the other canoe. the diamond shaped flag holders are made of very thin brass (1/16 or less) and plated with a silver coating. Is this common? Fred
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
Fred --
The diamond flag holders on my Morris, no. 6466, are as you describe, and I'm pretty sure they are original. At the moment I'm dealing with a pretty dodgy internet connection and can't send pictures, but if you are interested, I will send some pictures within the next few days when I get a good connection.
Greg
The diamond flag holders on my Morris, no. 6466, are as you describe, and I'm pretty sure they are original. At the moment I'm dealing with a pretty dodgy internet connection and can't send pictures, but if you are interested, I will send some pictures within the next few days when I get a good connection.
Greg
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
Thanks Greg
MGC
Scrapmaker
Since Kathy has not jumped in yet, the SN 8246 was more likely a 1911 build.
There are no precise dates and there are no records for Morris so the process of dating is built around assumptions and information collected by Kathy and others. Here is a link to a related discussion:
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8226-Morris-Ship-Dates/page2&highlight=morris+serial+numbers
At some point I will update the table to smooth out the numbers in the war years. Benson provided confirmation that Old Town and canoe production were very affected by the war and the assumptions I made did not take that into consideration. The next version of the table will jam a lot more canoes into 1912 (since there is a good marker date) through 1916/17 and fewer canoes during the war.
The stem mounted painter ring is not unusual on these Morris canoes. I have seen several of them, most of them post 1910 build........I have seen it on canoes that have the deck hole and also on canoes without it. Given the shape of the deck and the nice wide mounting area on the stem, it seems like as good a location as any.
There are no precise dates and there are no records for Morris so the process of dating is built around assumptions and information collected by Kathy and others. Here is a link to a related discussion:
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8226-Morris-Ship-Dates/page2&highlight=morris+serial+numbers
At some point I will update the table to smooth out the numbers in the war years. Benson provided confirmation that Old Town and canoe production were very affected by the war and the assumptions I made did not take that into consideration. The next version of the table will jam a lot more canoes into 1912 (since there is a good marker date) through 1916/17 and fewer canoes during the war.
The stem mounted painter ring is not unusual on these Morris canoes. I have seen several of them, most of them post 1910 build........I have seen it on canoes that have the deck hole and also on canoes without it. Given the shape of the deck and the nice wide mounting area on the stem, it seems like as good a location as any.
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
Got it! Thanks Fred
rakwetpaddle
paddle dipper
What info can you give on hull number 8883? It has birdseye decks, thwarts, and seat frames. the capped rails are mahogany on this 18' model A, type 1.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Hey Ralph,
My guess is that this canoe was a special order, what with the birdseye. Very rare-- as rare as that other birdseye I know about. So, there are two of them... and one tiger maple Veazie. 8883 would NOT be a Veazie-- with that serial number it would be a BN Morris, which NORMALLY has mahogany trim. It probably dates from 1910-11.
Any non-mahogany-trimmed Morris-built canoe is "rare" (I dislike using that over-used word, but it works in this case).
Kathy
My guess is that this canoe was a special order, what with the birdseye. Very rare-- as rare as that other birdseye I know about. So, there are two of them... and one tiger maple Veazie. 8883 would NOT be a Veazie-- with that serial number it would be a BN Morris, which NORMALLY has mahogany trim. It probably dates from 1910-11.
Any non-mahogany-trimmed Morris-built canoe is "rare" (I dislike using that over-used word, but it works in this case).
Kathy
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
flag holders
Fred --
Here are some pictures of the flag holders as they came in the decks of my Morris 6466 -- the decks, among other things, came with the canoe when I acquired it, but had been removed to facilitate a terrible fiberglass job that was never finished (and which I will have to undo one of these days):
bow deck --
stern deck --
See following post for more information and pictures
Greg
Fred --
Here are some pictures of the flag holders as they came in the decks of my Morris 6466 -- the decks, among other things, came with the canoe when I acquired it, but had been removed to facilitate a terrible fiberglass job that was never finished (and which I will have to undo one of these days):
bow deck --
stern deck --
See following post for more information and pictures
Greg
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
The photos in the post above may not clearly show it, but the sockets are brass, and plated with a silvery metal (nickel or chrome?) that has worn badly.
At least some of the Morris catalogs offered the sockets -- for example, the 1979 catalog shows them at pp. 30-31, at two for 50 cents:
Here are a few more pictures of Morris decks with sockets installed; some canoes had two sockets, one in each deck.
At least some of the Morris catalogs offered the sockets -- for example, the 1979 catalog shows them at pp. 30-31, at two for 50 cents:
Here are a few more pictures of Morris decks with sockets installed; some canoes had two sockets, one in each deck.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
To answer the question re Morris models: First of all every BN Morris canoe is "first class" and trimmed in mahogany, except for two known BN Morris canoes that are birdseye. Veazie (by Morris) canoes are "factory direct" and essentially "second grade", although they could come with mahogany trim if ordered that way, but the standard is a wood trim of lesser grade than mahogany and what I have personally seen is maple, stained mahogany-color.
Morris models after about 1905 are A,B,C, and D and IF you get them side by side (or if you live in the UP of Michigan, you might say "side by each") and you stood there with the Morris catalog and measured them, you MAY be able to tell which model you have. Chances are it is A or B. If your canoe is 12 or 13 feet long, it is model B because that size only came in model B. If your canoe was factory-fitted with row locks and/or sail rigging, it MAY be a B because the B was wider than the A.
The Morris "types" are as follows:
type 1 has a short deck, type 2 has a long deck, and type 3 has a long deck and outside stems. There are mysterious types in-between that are not differentiated, such as: I know of several type 1 canoes with outside stems... so that would be (for instance) "Model A, type 1 with outside stems". Some Morris canoes have all-mahogany rails, some have open wales and D-shaped outwales... all of these odd ones would simply be "Model A type 1 with open wales" (or whatever it is).
The canoe in the original post appears to be a "Model A type 2" but if I enlarge the picture to see if it has outside stems I'm afraid I'll lose this post. If it has outside stems, it is "Model A type 3". I say Model A because it doesn't look wide enough to be a B and the Cs and Ds are harder to differentiate and I believe rare as they were deeper or skinnier and not the "all around boat" that the A and B are. Or at least that's my impression, but if someone has one, bring it to the Assembly so we can check it out and compare.
I also agree with the above discussions of diamond-shaped Morris flag holders and Morris painters attached to the stem... Have seen/owned both.
Kathy
Morris models after about 1905 are A,B,C, and D and IF you get them side by side (or if you live in the UP of Michigan, you might say "side by each") and you stood there with the Morris catalog and measured them, you MAY be able to tell which model you have. Chances are it is A or B. If your canoe is 12 or 13 feet long, it is model B because that size only came in model B. If your canoe was factory-fitted with row locks and/or sail rigging, it MAY be a B because the B was wider than the A.
The Morris "types" are as follows:
type 1 has a short deck, type 2 has a long deck, and type 3 has a long deck and outside stems. There are mysterious types in-between that are not differentiated, such as: I know of several type 1 canoes with outside stems... so that would be (for instance) "Model A, type 1 with outside stems". Some Morris canoes have all-mahogany rails, some have open wales and D-shaped outwales... all of these odd ones would simply be "Model A type 1 with open wales" (or whatever it is).
The canoe in the original post appears to be a "Model A type 2" but if I enlarge the picture to see if it has outside stems I'm afraid I'll lose this post. If it has outside stems, it is "Model A type 3". I say Model A because it doesn't look wide enough to be a B and the Cs and Ds are harder to differentiate and I believe rare as they were deeper or skinnier and not the "all around boat" that the A and B are. Or at least that's my impression, but if someone has one, bring it to the Assembly so we can check it out and compare.
I also agree with the above discussions of diamond-shaped Morris flag holders and Morris painters attached to the stem... Have seen/owned both.
Kathy
