Help Me ID a Chestnut

[70 140]

I just picked this Chestnut up as a winter project.

I've been through the books I have and the on-line model/sizing charts and I can't figure out what boat this is. I am thinking Cronje, but its
deeper. Too narrow to be a Prospector, maybe a Guides Special?

Measurements:
LOA - 17 feet
Width (Canvas to Canvas) 33"
Depth (Canvas to top of Gunwale) - 14 3/4"
End Height (Floor to Tip of Deck) - 24"
Rib Spacing - just shy of 2"

 

[Jan Bloom]

Didn't Chestnut use caned seats? The ones I have seen all had caned seats.

 

[70 140]

In the early years they may have caned seats. Later on they started to use strips cut from hide (which is what you can see in the photo I
posted). The book When the Chestnut Was in Flower has a paragraph or two talking about the hides, and the fellow who sliced them up.

 

[WoodNCanvas]

Just curious, but could the 'K' be for Kandalore???? or Keewaydin????...if these or other camp, could explain babiche seats....

Any way, based on your measurements, it could be a Cronje (Cruiser)....or Crockett (Guides Special)....I believe sometimes both were built slightly narrower or deeper....which could explain 33 in. width or more than 14 in. depth....

 

[Steve Lapey]

Keewaydin used Cronjes from Chestnut and in later years from Donald Fraser. They ordered then with the cord seats as they hold up better under the hard use that they get on Keewaydin trips. This one also appears to have the "Wannigan Ribs", three forward of the center thwart and three aft of the thwart. I bet this canoe has a lot of interesting stories to tell!

 

[70 140]

Thanks for the info so far. It seems pretty close to the Cronje, that was my best guess.

It is in fact a Keewaydin Boat. It does have the Wanigan ribs, which appear to be held in with copper staples. The fact that the boat is deeper might have been something that the camp requested.

I pulled off the canvas this morning, its going to need some planking and a few ribs.

 

[WoodNCanvas]

Keewaydin used Cronjes from Chestnut and in later years from Donald Fraser. They ordered then with the cord seats as they hold up better under the hard use that they get on Keewaydin trips. This one also appears to have the "Wannigan Ribs", three forward of the center thwart and three aft of the thwart. I bet this canoe has a lot of interesting stories to tell!

Thanks Steve....I believe most tripping camps would have ordered lower grade Cruisers or Guides Specials....likely 17 fters....and the cord seats (or even babiche) seats....I'd love to know more about 'wannigan ribs'....and the story this canoe could tell....

 

[Andre Cloutier]

Dylan is the authority on Keewaydin, and I'm sure will chime it, but its one of theirs. Appears to be a Cronje, and they get rebuilt periodically so forget the measurements as being accurate, along with a shortened thwart which sees them round out a bit. What number is the boat, and where did you aquire it from? Nice boats with a lot of history, as Steve says.

 

[70 140]

I wish I knew more about the stories it could tell, but I don't. I got the boat from a fellow in Temagami.

The boat is number 61 and despite the condition of the canvas I have been paddling it.

When I pulled the canvas off I got a laugh out of all the pieces of shirt and bandana that had been used to patch it.

As for the seat material. They are the same as the ones on my 18' Prospector - as seen below:

 

[WoodNCanvas]

Where are you in northern Ontario???? If you are near Temagami at end of month, then you might want to attend the Friends of Temagami AGM, http://friendsoftemagami.org/agm-2011.pdf. Brian Black who wrote 'the' book on Keewaydin, is the guest speaker....and he might have some info on that canoe....or check out Ottertooth.com, where you can find this info, http://ottertooth.com/Canoe_pages/canoe_eras_K.htm:

Keewaydin Canoes: Wooden Canoe Eras

By purchases:

Era Manufacturer/Canoe Type Source
1893-1901 Clinker-built, board-and-batten, wood-canvas Various Maine builders
1902 Birchbark Ottawa Valley
1903-1904 Board-and-batten, birchbark Various Canadian builders
1905-1907 Board-and-batten, wood-canvas Various Canadian builders
1908-1925 E.M. White Canoe Company/wood-canvas Old Town, Maine
1926-1979 Chestnut Canoe Company/wood-canvas Fredericton, New Brunswick
1982- Donald Fraser Canoes/wood-canvas Fredericton, New Brunswick; Temagami Canoe Company/wood-canvas Temagami

Notes:
Canoe Type or Manufacturer. Canoes did not come exclusively from the builders listed, but they were the dominant sources of canoes in their eras.
1902-1904: Birchbarks were the canoes obtained in Mattawa during the Trip In, because that was the canoe available at the HBC and from the guides.
Chestnut: The start of the Chestnut era was sometime in the late 1920s. Chestnut's large-volume, fast Prospector had become the ideal canoe for Keewaydin trips, and probably, there was a desire to save the duty on canoe importation from the U.S. In the 1960s and 70s, Keewaydin would become one of Chestnut's largest non-dealer customers.
E. M. White: Henry McLeod became a builder at White, influencing the decision to switch from Old Town.
1980-81: There were no wood-canvas canoe purchases in these years between the demise of Chestnut and the start up of Don Fraser's shop. Reimers bought as many Chestnuts as he could in 1979, Chestnut's last year. In the end, he got 20 17-foot Cruisers, Prospectors and Guide's Specials. The last 18-foot Prospector built by Chestnut did not arrive as it was run over by a truck at the factory. The arrival of Scott Kevlars in 1979 and 1980 eased the need for canvas-canoe purchases in those years.

 

[70 140]

Interesting timeline of the Keewaydin Boats. I feel like I have read that blurb somewhere before about the 18 footer that got crushed, maybe even on Ottertooth in the past, or does Roger McGregor mention it in his book?

I'm in North Bay - just an hour below Temagami. If anyone close wants to help me stretch a canvas this winter I'm sure I could use some pointers. I saved a patch of both the "K" and the "61"; Part of me thinks I should repaint it, the other part of me doesn't want another green boat.

If anyone else is after a similar boat, I know of a few others.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

If you get the boat and canvas ready, I'll give you a hand when I'm in North Bay, I'm just in Muskoka but go to South River a lot. I'll be starting one of mine shortly as well, since i really like paddling it but it leaks too, bandana patches and all!

 

[70 140]

Thanks for the offer, I will let you know when I am closer, I'm a few months off putting new canvas on. There are 9 ribs that need attention, and a bit of planking to replace. The starboard gunwale - inner and outer are very misshapen. It looks like the boat spent a long while sitting on that side. It has gone flat between the centre thwart and the rear thwart.

I'd like to reuse as much of the original wood as I can, but as previously mentioned, the boat has likely been reworked a few times... so I'm not even sure what is original.

 

[WoodNCanvas]

If I can be of any help let me know as well....I'm in the North Bay area occasionally....

Can you PM me info on where the other canoes like this might be? I'm looking for canoes for a prospective youth canoe restoration program....

 

[70 140]

PM Sent

Thanks all for the information. I'm looking forward to getting started on this project.

 

[Dylan Schoelzel]

This is a 17 foot Chestnut Cruiser circa early 70’s (I’ll have to check the log for the exact year) from Keewaydin.

Don’t pay attention to the measurements of the canoe. During the 60’s and 70’s the guides at Keewaydin pulled in the width to make the canoe deeper and more round bottom and, hopefully, faster under load. This is also why the sheer looks misshapen. Canoes are not stored on their sides at Keewaydin. The canoe fleet is one of their biggest physical assets, totaling over 130, so despite the hard use they get, they are generally taken care of very well.

Your canoe has also been re-built 3 or 4 times or so and canoes that get used like this tend to lose their shape, particularly the depth over 20-30 years of heavy tripping.

The wannigan ribs are, as far as I know, Keewaydin’s brainchild, not Chestnuts. As I understand it this was a special order that Keewaydin came up with and had Chestnut put them on every canoe they ordered, even the double ribbed prospectors and guide specials had them. They are fastened with copper nails clinched over. They serve the purpose of adding strength to the hull where the wannigans are loaded in the canoe, and protecting the ribs under them from damage.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the seats where original. Chestnut wasn’t even coming close to building their canoes as advertised in the 70’s as the company was heading toward doom. Original late model chestnuts that came to the island (Keewaydin) had either caned, hide, or slat seats. Most where caned, but never strung with string or cord. Only Fraser strung his seats with string for Keewaydin.

Keewaydin does trips in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, and Labrador just about every summer. The average canoe probably travels 300-400 miles a season so over a 30 year period your canoe has seen some territory.

 

[70 140]

Thank you for the reply Dylan, lots of great information.

Despite the narrowed thwarts, I have been paddling it, and don't mind the feel of the boat. I may leave it as is.

I can tell it has been worked over a few times. Lots of the planking is numbered - some in green marker, and some in black marker... so probably at least two different times when ribs were replaced.

What is the determining factor for the camp to get rid of boats?