Chestnut Canoe Plans and Offsets

[TraderMonk]

Hi Dan and Dave,
After reading through the Chestnut info , it started me wondering why so many of the canoe plans that seemed to originate so long ago, are advertised for sale by other folks ... they seem to be calling the design they're own . I understand that there is cost involved with printing /shipping ... don't get me wrong ... i get that, it just seems like to get offsets ya need to know the secret handshake. Is there any place that one can readily obtain a table of offsets for a "classic" canoe? Shouldn't they be public domain by now?
Also J.G Brown seems to have had some nice designs ..... is there any database of offsets hidden somewhere?
Sorry if i seem a little torqued, I've just gotten a little frustrated looking for offsets.

 

[Dan Miller]

Sure, the designs are old enough, and the original manufacturers are defunct, so the designs would be considered public domain. However, with the exception of a Herald canoe design that was published in Forest and Stream, I know of no original plans or offsets for traditional canvas, wide-board, cedar-strip, etc. open canoes, nor do I know of a "database of offsets hidden somewhere." (There are a number of plans and offsets for decked sailing canoes that are readily available for free on the interweb).

So, in order to create some, someone has to spend time locating an appropriate canoe to measure, recognizing that they can change shape over time and may not be an accurate reflection of the original designers intent. Then one has to go through a number of steps to produce a drawing and table of offsets:

- the canoe must be blocked up level and plumb, then measured very accurately
- these measurements must then be faired, either through full-size lofting or scale drawing
- from the lofted drawing, the offsets are picked off, and then a final scale drawing is produced
- in many cases, when documenting old canoes, scantlings and construction details are also included, though not always, and not necessarily necessary for building a new one.
- only then does printing/shipping come into play, and lastly
- there will likely be much time addressing questions from customers ranging from interpreting the plans to building a canoe.

So you are paying for much more than just a sheet of paper put into the mail. You are paying for the documenters time, and more importantly, his skill and ability to do this, and perhaps his investment in education, software, etc.

In some cases, these do appear in the public domain, see for example http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/hh:@field(SUBJ+@od1(canoes))

The work done by someone doing the above is probably protected by copyright - it is a new interpretation of an old design, and the drawings are certainly new work. One can't copy and distribute such drawings, but there is nothing to stop someone for doing the work on their own and making similar drawings of the same design.

 

[TraderMonk]

Or in the case of the Meraco Speedster Square Stern Canoe @ the link above, get the taxpayer to purchase a $3500 Leica Total Station to gather the measurements and feed them into a $3600 AeroHydro MultiSurf software package to make it a tad bit easier.

But I do understand the work involved in getting the lines and points manually.... and have great respect for them that do this and even patronize them.
There is still, however, the nagging question of... can a person reverse engineer some long dead persons intellectual property, take credit for, or even copyright such work.

I like you are interested in Luthiery. We see plenty of Telecaster clones as well as Les Paul and Martin clones, but are the makers paying fees to Fender,Gibson or Martin.

Of course they do make a tiny alteration in the headstock to get away with it ... everyone remembers when Martin broke bad on Takamine and Hondo for making Martin clones that supposedly were being mistaken for the real McCoy.

My whole fear is that if i build a Chestnut Prospector or a Chestnut Bob's Special to sell, then some litigious individual is gonna come try and lay a shakedown on me for some $$$. But as you say above ....... "there is nothing to stop someone for doing the work on their own and making similar drawings of the same design. "

 

[Dan Miller]

Amortized over the number and scale of projects, the total scan and software cost is trivial, and the cost of a project is usually footed by the contracting party (I was involved with HAER projects documenting a 104' houseboat and the worlds' largest wooden runabout while I was at the boat museum).

With respect to the guitar example, you are confusing copyright with trademark. Headstock shapes are often trademarked as a recognizable symbol of the brand. You can build as many copies as you want, just don't sell them without a license agreement.

Perhaps a good analogy for your copyright question comes from the music industry - look at how many musicians are recording songs that are in the public domain - folks songs for example. The new recording is copyrighted, but you are not prevented from making your own recording of the same song.

There were recent lawsuits over the Chestnut trademark, but so far as I know, no one has ever been challenged for building replicas. Litigious individuals go where the money is, and we all know there is no money in canoe building!