Can you find this one?

[ejgrove]

Hello,
I stumbled across WCHA and love it!
I found a brass tag with 4 rivets similar to one I saw on this site someplace.
My canoe's number is 14089. It is wood and canvas. I've always thought of it as 19' long and heavy, however that could be +/- 12" and still heavy.
Thoughts appreciated.
Eric

 

[Denis M. Kallery]

Eric,
Could you post photos of the tag and the canoe. Those would be helpful in making an ID.
Denis

 

[Benson Gray]

My guess is that you have a Carleton canoe since the Old Town and Kennebec canoes with this serial number are 16 and 17 feet long respectively. The brass tag should look something like the one shown at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8361&d=1250430615 here.

The Carleton canoe with serial number 14089 is an 18 foot long, CS grade, Carleton model with western red cedar planking, open spruce gunwales, birch decks, birch trim, a mast seat and rudder. It was built in 1919. The original exterior paint color was dark green. It shipped on January 9th, 1920 to Pittsburgh, Penna. A scan of this build record can be found by following the link under the thumbnail image attached below.

These scans were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. Additional information about the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will join or contribute to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.html to join.

It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

Benson

 

[ejgrove]

Canoe and Tag

I think I have figured out how to load a couple of pictures.
Maybe these can help.
eric

 

[Michael Grace]

Eric,

Your canoe turns out to be a B.N. Morris. Search thee forums and you'll find tons of info on Morris canoes. The "splayed" stem with its brass tag is one obvious identifier. Look at photos of the stems of canoes from most other makers, and you'll see that they have a much smaller, square profile. Your serial number places the canoe at about 1916, but Morris records are not known to still exist, so details will come only from the features of your canoe. There are Morris catalogs available. See the WCHA store for a reprint and catalogs on CD.

The canoe appears to be closed gunwale, with gunwales of the type Morris called "special gunwales". This refers to the wide outwale as opposed to a spall cap on the outside of the canoe's top edge. It has been painted on the inside- it wuld have been varnished originally. If you were to restore it, the paint may be in the grain of the hull and difficult to remove, OR it may have protected your canoe very well, and when stripped may reveal beautiful cedar underneath.

Michael

 

[ejgrove]

Thank you very much for the informational points. I have been looking into this most of the evening, and can't wait for next weekend's lake visit.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hello Eric,

We've added your canoe to our Morris database, and if you have time there are a few details I could add. Your canoe is probably an 18 footer. The decks appear to be 24", is that correct? Very cool that the middle thwart didn't disappear! They are usually on wing-nuts, for removal if more gear needs to go in the middle.

Can you either post or send me a profile of the canoe-- especially of the bow or stern-- and count the number of cant rib pairs? The cant ribs are those ribs under the deck which aren't full, steam-bent ribs, but are half-ribs canted into the stem. My guess is that you have three pairs up in there, but I don't want to assume things about the data we're gathering.

Have a great time paddling this weekend.

Thanks!
Kathy
kathrynklos@gmail.com

 

[ejgrove]

Having a ball

Hi Kathy,

I am pleased to provide what I know of my canoe, however you and others at this site seem to already know more details than I.

I remeasured a few areas this past weekend, and will admit to not knowing exactly which Point A to Point B should be measured. As such, all measurements are my closest guess to where measurement should be taken.
Length: 18'
Decks: 24"
Cant rib pairs: 3
Depth: 12" ? Really not sure where nor how to measure.
Width inside clear on top of middle thwart: 32"
A thwart, I recall as the middle one, was currently held in place by square nuts.

Having a ball,
Eric

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Thanks for the great pictures, Eric. I especially like the first one, of the canoe being used by your family! The statements in their advertising aside, I can't help thinking it would be a huge surprise to those who built the canoe to imagine it in use more than 90 years later!

Your canoe appears to be an 18 foot Model A, type 3. The A was the most common model, built for a variety of paddling-situations-- and a majority of Morris canoes in the database are 17-18 feet. Although long decks are seen more often in the last years of Morris production than in the earlier time, overall there aren't as many long-decked Morris canoes. As you may well imagine, until recent times, if a long deck was damaged it was probably more trouble to fix than the canoe was worth, and the canoe was trashed or the deck replaced with a short one. Or with duct tape.

Regarding "types": the Morris type 1 is a short decked canoe; type 2 is a long decked canoe, and type 3 has long decks and outside stems.

Thanks so very much for providing this information. There will be more Morris information in an up-coming issue of the WCHA journal,Wooden Canoe... probably the December issue. I can't put into words how helpful it has been to get information on each of these boats from their owners.

The pictures you attached are just what we need. Thanks!

Are you aware that there's an active WCHA chapter in Wisconsin? If you're anywhere near Jag Lake-- in the Minocqua area-- next weekend there's a get-together planned that Denis and I are SOOOOOO sorry we'll be missing this year! I made a video of last year's event, and will post the link just to get you all fired-up about it. WCHA folks are a great bunch... and when you get together with canoes and kids and dogs, with a great place to camp and paddle... there's no better time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2AL5FEerH4&feature=channel_page

Kathy

 

[ejgrove]

We drove near Jag Lake 2x last weekend ~ probably not next weekend tho.

I was not aware of WCHA locations in the area. I'll need to take a look.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Some WCHA Chapters have regular meetings and others plan get-togethers more spontaneously--depending on weather-- and locations of meetings may vary from one paddling-spot to someone's shop. There's a place in these forums where chapter events are posted, but you might contact the heads of the two Wisconsin-area chapters to get your name on their lists, so you can be informed of events.

You may find there may be several members living near you.

Great Rivers (WI & IL)

Jerry Karbon
1531 Red Oak Court
Middleton, WI 53562
608-831-5552
jkarbon@charter.net

Wild Rivers (Northern Wisconsin)

Gary Peterson
2295 16-3/4 Ave.
Rice Lake , WI 54868
715-458-2998
canoecraft@yahoo.com

 

[ejgrove]

Eric,

.... It has been painted on the inside- it wuld have been varnished originally. If you were to restore it, the paint may be in the grain of the hull and difficult to remove, OR it may have protected your canoe very well, and when stripped may reveal beautiful cedar underneath.

Michael

I've always known the canoe with its inside as is - painted - and am not sure what direction I'd like to go with it. Somewhere along it's history the paint was cleaned off of the tag, mostly. The inside has worn quite well (it's a durable coating not yet needing attention for maintenance) Are there best practices for how to strip or refinish the inside wood?

I tend to think of older things as having their history, and that history is part of the fun. A little like the 'lived in' nicks and scratches that I do not plan to change. Maybe my canoe will remain red. Or, maybe I will test strip a spot and be unable to stop - adding history in the other direction.

Also, on the canvas side, are there suggestions for finish / maintenance? There are spots of obvious touch-ups and I would like to even the color at these points. I was thinking of a light sanding, dusting, and new coat of a Pettit marine paint. Yes/No/Maybe so?

Thanks for any thoughts,
Eric

 

[Kathryn Klos]

It nice to have a canoe that you can let the dog ride in without worrying about his toenails.

There are several past-discussions here regarding stripping the interior and canvas rehab.... it can be hard to go through them all to find what you want, but you might want to poke around, using the "search" function above.

I believe the consensus regarding paint-removal is that the more powerful, brain-destroying methaline chloride types work best.... and what's better is hiring someone else to do the work. Refinishing the inside of a canoe is similar to refinishing furniture.

It's also okay to keep a canvas going with whatever works (a tradition going back to the birch barks, when they patched with canvas). But if you strip the inside of the canoe, you will have to replace the canvas too.

It's nice to have a canoe you can use, and to use that canoe until you really want to dive into a project or there are ribs to replace or a hole in the planking. And it's nice to respect every little bit of history that the boat has encountered. You could do whatever necessary to keep 'er going, and by the time anything major needs to be done, you may have an idea of just how far you want to take the restoration.

There are some helpful books out there, such as Stelmok and Thurlow's The Wood and Canvas Canoe.

Kathy

 

[Dave Osborn]

ERIC,
jUST HAD FOUR CANOES COMMERCIALLY STRIPPED IN APPLETON, WI. THE GUY DOES A FANTASTIC JOB. WELL WORTH THE MONEY!
CHANCES ARE THAT YOUR CANOE ORIGINALLY HAD VARNISH ON THE INSIDE. NEVER HEARD OF PAINTED INTERIOR FROM THE FACTORY (YET).

i'M IN THE NORTHERN PART OF WISCONSIN....BOULDER JUNCTION. LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED ANY HELP....
DAVE OSBORN
www.littlelakescanoe.com

 

[ejgrove]

I think I have figured out how to load a couple of pictures.
Maybe these can help.
eric

In my earlier posted picture of the deck, is the metal diamond, currently used as a tie off, intended for a flag mount? I never really questioned its purpose till surfing here a bit...

Membership website is offline. I was going to. Maybe next time. I'm interested in Kathy's hinted article in the journal.

Dave (right off 51? I'll have to pay attention next time thru) - I'd say from the looks, the red coating inside was by a previous owner, and not from the factory. Not poorly done, but some gaps under the edges and some thick spots on the bottom.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Eric--

Yes, you have a flag holder on the deck of your canoe. Might look nice with one of the WCHA burgees (available from the WCHA store)! Although, using it to hold a rope is something I've seen others do too.

I'll attach a picture that might be used in the article I'm writing for Wooden Canoe, probably the December issue. The picture is from a postcard regarding Belle Isle, where many of the canoes were Morrises from CJ Molitor's livery or purchased from his Morris dealership.

The attached picture reminds me of that game on Sesame Street, "which of these things is not like the other" when looking at the canoes. Note the flags in holders.

Kathy

 

[ejgrove]

Asking around and learned the seats were likely recained something a bit pre 1970 and was recanvased some later ... still searching family memories that hadn't been ruffled in a while.

 

[ejgrove]

Kathy, you and other posts I've read in the past few weeks, write of doing upkeep, restoration and such as needed to keep a boat going. This makes perfect sense to me regarding a boat which is intended to be used. It also seems to follow the historical pattern of wood and canvas maintenance.

As it's not 100 years old yet, close but not, are there common thoughts regarding the 'correctness' or restoration vs. leaving it as is for concern of removing the patina?

Some such differences between treatment of old wood canoes and old wood furniture and old (not wood) cars, which I don't fully balance.

How would one know if restoration becomes better than new, and taken too far? Not that I immediately fear crossing such a line, but rather some future interior restoration is feasible.

Eric

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Eric--

This is a topic we return to from time to time.

If there is a "rule" with canoes, it's to consider them more in the "antique vehicle" category than the antique furniture or piece of art. In other words, a restored canoe usually has greater value than one that is untouched. But there are "degrees of restoration". I think we've all seen canoes described as "restored" which needed help.

Bottom line is that it's your canoe... and you get to choose the colors and whether you want to change the wood species from ash to mahogany. There are some who'd say (with an older boat) it's best to choose a wood species for a new deck that would have been offered at the time the canoe was new... but unless your canoe is one of a very few existing examples of its kind, you should feel free to use your imagination and personal preference.

There was article in an issue of Wooden Canoe a while back, about a Gerrish that was found in original condition and thought to be one of the earliest known examples. It seemed prudent to keep it as-is, because there were features of construction that were unusual, which inform us of decisions that were made regarding building canoes at that time.

Personal taste comes into play--- I personally wouldn't paint a Gerrish or older EM White two colors with a stripe of gold leaf like a courting canoe. But I like to see fancy paint jobs on courting canoes. I prefer not to "know" which ribs were replaced because the inside of the canoe is stained dark except for three ribs and a patch of planking-- but some folks like having a distinction between the parts that are genuinely old in the canoe and the parts that are replaced. There really isn't a "rule", the way there is with 18th Century furniture. There are probably rules of perfection for boat show winners though, just as there are for car and motorcycle and tractor shows.

I love the old patina in the canoe we use to bat around in, and I don't care if it never gets restored. I know the canoe could be "like new" again, and would be "worth more", but I like its comfortable worn-look. "Patina" is a personal-choice matter, and not something you have to be concerned about... you can strip and refinish or leave as-is, depending on what you like to see... unless you are entering a boat show, or restoring your canoe in order to sell it. If it's "for you" then let it be what you prefer.

I don't think "true" restoration can be taken too far, because true restoration would indicate taking the canoe back to what it was originally. With modern paints and such, it could be better than original. Meticulous restoration would mean removing the old screws and tacks and knocking out the kinks and returning them to the canoe... soldering original stem bands if ones exactly like them aren't to be found... if the canoe had areas that were riveted, replacing rivets or fashioning something that resembles rivets... this is stuff that doesn't seem "over the top" in a restoration, but is part of a meticulous restoration that perhaps not everyone wants to do or which every old canoe warrants. For some, it may be part of the fun--- figuring out how to re-create what was originally there. For others, it simply isn't worth the effort.

While a true restoration probably can't go too far (except in the case of a very rare canoe that perhaps should remain as found), I personally (and this is personal-choice) don't like to see a wrong-era decal or plate on an Old Town... to my mind, that's "fixing up a boat" and not restoration. I don't like diamond-head bolts on anything but an Old Town or Carleton from the eras that had diamond-head bolts. Like courting-canoe colors on an early Gerrish: just doesn't seem right. But-- it isn't my canoe.

Kathy

 

[ejgrove]

Thanks again Kathy.

You are quite a source, and I've enjoyed the forum's input such that I have signed up as a WCHA member. I look forward to seeing the journal and the eventual Morris article.

Would the burgee pole from the Store fit the flag holder diameter of a Morris canoe? I might be interested in the mahogany pole and flag for the bow. I might go all the way and get a US flag for the rear holder.

New thought:
I have see references to BN Morris and Morris-Veazie canoes. Are they the same or different?

Eric