Atkinson Traveler build; inwales & ribs
- Thread starter patrick corry
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Vinci
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Thank you for your patient explanation, it has made me eager to build a canoe like this. If I want to build a canoe wrapped with fiberglass, how should I address the issue of gaps? I’m very particular about the details of the appearance. I really appreciate your advice. (The picture is of a Landford canoe, where they preserve the original wood color and ensure there are no visible gaps.)
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MGC
Scrapmaker
First, I would not suggest using fiberglass. Using fiberglass flies in the face of the entire construction style. Unlike filled canvas, fiberglass is a heavier (typically), not as easily repaired (generally) and from my experience, changes the handling and paddling characteristics of the wood and canvas canoe in a way that is not beneficial, making it both stiffer and noisier. Frankly, given the choice of covering wood with glass or an all-glass hull, I would pick a Kevlar hull over a glassed one (weight) and a Royalex one over the Kevlar (durability). I currently own several modern hulls (Royalex and Kevlar) and I have a wood and canvas canoe that will soon be stripped of the glass that it is embalmed in..... I never use the Kevlar canoe, I do not like the "feel" under paddle. I use the Royalex as a beater, for rapids or I lend it to people who I do not trust with a good canoe. Any canoe I have ever owned that has had glass on it has either been sold or restored by removing the glass and replacing it with canvas.
Coming from a strip canoe background as you are, you probably do not yet know that the glassed Langford would not be held in very high regard by most wood and canvas canoe owners. You need to try paddling a canvas covered canoe. You will become a convert.
So, that out of the way, if you do decide that is your passion, there is no magic to this. To reduce the gaps, you simply need to build the hull more carefully. As you plank it, the fits of the planking are 100% controllable. It's as simple as that.
Zoom in on Dave's image of the boat he is building. The fit of the planking looks very good to my eye. I doubt he would give a moment of consideration to putting glass on that, but if he did, it would look pretty good.
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patrick corry
solo canoeist
Nearing the end of the planking process it suddenly dawned on me... I haven't made decks, thwarts, seat frames yet! So while I'm plugging away at planking ( the hard part is using the planking material I have on hand wisely and arriving at a pleasing planking pattern!) I have started work on the decks.
Decks, thwarts, and seat frames will be made from quarter sawn American Sycamore (Platanus Occidentalis) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platanus_occidentalis. It has a really interesting figure when quarter sawn, especially where the decks and thwarts will be crowned. It is a species of tree quite common here in my part of Pennsylvania, and last year I made a paddle from it which I like... so, why not?
Decks:
The underside is coved with this jig on my table saw. The 5/4" block screwed to the underside of the deck blank creates the limited cove shape seen on the finished underside. Care must be taken to only take tiny incremental cuts otherwise the blade would throw the work piece!! I guess the smart thing would be to put a fence/guide on both sides of the blank.
And, sawn to shape:
Starting to crown the upper surface:
Decks, thwarts, and seat frames will be made from quarter sawn American Sycamore (Platanus Occidentalis) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platanus_occidentalis. It has a really interesting figure when quarter sawn, especially where the decks and thwarts will be crowned. It is a species of tree quite common here in my part of Pennsylvania, and last year I made a paddle from it which I like... so, why not?
Decks:
The underside is coved with this jig on my table saw. The 5/4" block screwed to the underside of the deck blank creates the limited cove shape seen on the finished underside. Care must be taken to only take tiny incremental cuts otherwise the blade would throw the work piece!! I guess the smart thing would be to put a fence/guide on both sides of the blank.
And, sawn to shape:
Starting to crown the upper surface:
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patrick corry
solo canoeist
Dave Wermuth, your canoe looks great. You're way ahead of me! What design is that canoe... it looks like a Chestnut Bobs Special in that photo.
Worth Gretter
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Patrick, that is some really fine work you are doing!
Vinci, let me echo MCG about fiberglass on a conventional (i.e. ribs and planking) wooden canoe. It's not a good idea. Just ask anyone who had to remove it for repairs or a restoration. If you think canvas will be too difficult, try Dacron. Just search for either canvas or Dacron on this site.
Vinci, let me echo MCG about fiberglass on a conventional (i.e. ribs and planking) wooden canoe. It's not a good idea. Just ask anyone who had to remove it for repairs or a restoration. If you think canvas will be too difficult, try Dacron. Just search for either canvas or Dacron on this site.
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Nice! I love quartersawn sycamore. A wood with very similar appearance but very red is the tropical (Central and South American) leopardwood (Roupala montana). It's just as beautiful as quartersawn sycamore - some people say they have too much pattern - but sycamore is much more tame because of its milder color. Leopardwood is much harder and more dense, weighing 60% more than sycamore - 55 lbs per cubic foot vs 34 lbs per cubic foot. In any case, you might enjoy some leopard wood but those sycamore decks are going to be gorgeous. I've made paddles from both woods and love them.
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patrick corry
solo canoeist
Vinci, I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the essential nature of the wood canvas canoe. The canvas outer covering, once filled and painted, is meant to encapsulate the cedar planking and provide waterproofing. No, the natural grain and color of the exterior of the canoe will not be visible, but the interior will remain fully visible to admire. It's a matter of aesthetics I suppose, but the painted canvas exterior provides plenty of opportunity to 'decorate' with paint color and pattern.
With regard to weight, I can't answer that question, but if weight is a consideration some builders use Dacron covering as an apparently lighter option. A search of this site will yield many discussions of that alternative covering.
With regard to weight, I can't answer that question, but if weight is a consideration some builders use Dacron covering as an apparently lighter option. A search of this site will yield many discussions of that alternative covering.
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Patrick's mention of aesthetics is important. As he indicates, the purpose of the covering, whatever its makeup, is to provide the waterproofing exterior. As suggested before in this thread there are structural pluses and minuses with any covering. The kind of canoe construction in question was based upon birchbark technology, using available "modern" materials. The early commercial builders worked hard to develop a process and materials that worked, and work it did. Still today, canvas and traditional filler are excellent despite constant attempts to reinvent the process.
Back to aesthetics... Long ago when I became interested in this type of construction, I thought (based largely upon photos) that I wanted clear fiberglass so that the beauty of the wood wasn't covered. But it didn't take long in person to find that I strongly preferred the look of a canvassed and painted hull. The usual cedar-and-rib hull is not built to be beautiful on the outside. The tacks usually don't form a visually pleasing pattern and hammer marks in the wood, often even if swollen out, show up as unsightly. And usually there is some aspect of the fiberglass weave and epoxy that is visible. In short, to me it interferes with the appearance of what I thought would be beautifully exposed exterior wood.
So what about canvas? In reality, to me it actually makes a wooden hull MUCH more attractive. The smooth expanse of color on the outside contrasts dramatically with the canoe's varnished ribs, planking and trim. Glimpsing the inside of a cedar-canvas canoe against its painted exterior is like walking through a beautiful forest and suddenly breaking through to a grand vista of mountains or a gorgeous lake or river. The experience of a beautiful interior is made much more stunning against the backdrop of a beautifully painted exterior.
This is just one person's experience, but it is a powerful experience.
Back to aesthetics... Long ago when I became interested in this type of construction, I thought (based largely upon photos) that I wanted clear fiberglass so that the beauty of the wood wasn't covered. But it didn't take long in person to find that I strongly preferred the look of a canvassed and painted hull. The usual cedar-and-rib hull is not built to be beautiful on the outside. The tacks usually don't form a visually pleasing pattern and hammer marks in the wood, often even if swollen out, show up as unsightly. And usually there is some aspect of the fiberglass weave and epoxy that is visible. In short, to me it interferes with the appearance of what I thought would be beautifully exposed exterior wood.
So what about canvas? In reality, to me it actually makes a wooden hull MUCH more attractive. The smooth expanse of color on the outside contrasts dramatically with the canoe's varnished ribs, planking and trim. Glimpsing the inside of a cedar-canvas canoe against its painted exterior is like walking through a beautiful forest and suddenly breaking through to a grand vista of mountains or a gorgeous lake or river. The experience of a beautiful interior is made much more stunning against the backdrop of a beautifully painted exterior.
This is just one person's experience, but it is a powerful experience.
MGC
Scrapmaker
Vinci, with respect to the weight. A typical canoe will be covered with a #10 canvas, then filled and painted. A 16-footer will weigh roughly 8 to 10 percent more than a professionally glassed hull. So, 5 or possibly 6 pounds? That's relatively nothing and well within the variability you might expect to find boat to boat. If that small amount of weight is a concern, lighter weight # 12 canvas would line it up with the glassed hull, and the Dacron mentioned by Todd would be even lighter. But, what is lost with glass is the interaction between the canvas and the hull when it is hit or impacted. A glass boat tends to transfer impact to the wood without "cushioning". I find more broken wood in fiberglassed hulls. And, I always find pulled tacks in the bottoms of glassed hulls. Also lost is the feel of the boat under paddle.
You have been admiring glassed Langford canoes. They do look nice. Langford, once known for its wood and canvased hulls now makes a line of boats that resemble the glass covered canoes that Old Town was producing before they eventually ended (in-house) production of the cedar and canvas canoes they were so famous for. There is a market for these, although as with Michael, I do not personally find these to be even slightly appealing. To my eye, the bared wood with its dimpled tack lines calls for finishing. I can go into my shop and look at a boat in process to see an unfinished hull. That bare hull is a call for finishing and in my shop the finish will not be glass.
You have been admiring glassed Langford canoes. They do look nice. Langford, once known for its wood and canvased hulls now makes a line of boats that resemble the glass covered canoes that Old Town was producing before they eventually ended (in-house) production of the cedar and canvas canoes they were so famous for. There is a market for these, although as with Michael, I do not personally find these to be even slightly appealing. To my eye, the bared wood with its dimpled tack lines calls for finishing. I can go into my shop and look at a boat in process to see an unfinished hull. That bare hull is a call for finishing and in my shop the finish will not be glass.
Dave Wermuth
Who hid my paddle?
Patrick, I was given a derelict canoe that was left in the woods under some brush. I barely got it home. It was a Penn Yan guide and only one quarter of it was fair. I used that quarter to take lines and build a form. It is 18' long. Or it was. I built one canoe from that form. I took that canoe to quetico a couple times with Ferdy Goode and Dave Osborn. I ended up selling the canoe. I was given another PY Guide some time later in pretty rough shape. This was years ago. Denis Kallery, who has now passed, called me one day and asked if I had a w/c cross section he could have for demo at shows. So I cut the center section out of the PY and set the two ends in the corner. Time passed. At the Quiet Water Symposium in East Lansing I saw a short canoe that Gil Cramer had made by shortening a derelict canoe and had it as a display canoe. So I thought to try to put the two PY sections together to see what would happen and it worked out pretty well. So as more time passed I decided to shorten the 18' form I had made from the PY Guide. After two prototypes I decided to flatten the bottom of the form because I think I made it too rounded in the first place. This is the third canoe off the shortened form and the first with the flattened area. I am hoping for better initial stability. Secondary stability is good already. The decks are tiny and the rails are spruce. The fabric is from Alex Comb. I'm trying to get it as light as I can. So you can see that there has been quite a collaboration of help, ideas and input from a number of our members. BTW the second canoe from the short form was the used as demonstration canvassing a w/c during the Quiet Water Symposium, now called quiet Adventure symposium in East Lansing just this last year and I did that with help from my then 7-year old grandson and a number of other members; John Hansen, Mike Darga, and some others that I cannot recall at the moment. So, this third prototype is 14 1/2 feet long roughly. It is 32" wide and about 12" deep. I don't know if it would work as a tandem. I've only set it up solo so far. and it just occurred to me that you basically asked what time of day it was and I told you the life story of the man who made the watch. Sorry for the thread hijack.
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patrick corry
solo canoeist
Au contraire Dave, thread drift is fine. I think that nearly everyone following this thread will enjoy the story of your canoe form evolution!
An online acquaintance of mine from Canoetripping.net, Robin Lauer, did essentially the same thing though skipping the form process. He shortened an 18’ Chestnut ‘Leader’ making it into a 16’ Chestnut ‘Cruiser’.
An online acquaintance of mine from Canoetripping.net, Robin Lauer, did essentially the same thing though skipping the form process. He shortened an 18’ Chestnut ‘Leader’ making it into a 16’ Chestnut ‘Cruiser’.
Dave Wermuth
Who hid my paddle?
nice video. Nice result.
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patrick corry
solo canoeist
I'm trying to decide on seat frames today while watching varnish dry; 3rd coat, 1st was 50/50, 2nd 70/30, 3rd full strength gloss.
I'm attempting to work out the hole spacing for a balanced look to the cane pattern, and while doing so, in the back of my mind I've been thinking about caning in an entirely different manner which would require building the seat frames differently as well. My thought is to use a Brodbeck or Nutting style seat. Not so much the shaped rails (but perhaps to some degree) but rather the non-hole, wrapped and woven cane style such as these:
Photos I've shamelessly lifted from several discussions here on the forum: Attribution to 1905Gerrish, Al Bratton, and Michael Grace respectively.
I note that in each case, the seat 'stretcher' is a dowel rather than a shaped piece like the rails. Some patterns have a 2x2 strand pattern, some 3x3. I think this is determined by the size of the cane used- perhaps 2x2 uses larger binding style cane. Knowledgeable folks are encouraged to chime in.
The next consideration is whether these seats are ridiculous in the Atkinson Traveler I'm building, or a welcome diversion from the typical cane patterns. Your thoughts?
I'm attempting to work out the hole spacing for a balanced look to the cane pattern, and while doing so, in the back of my mind I've been thinking about caning in an entirely different manner which would require building the seat frames differently as well. My thought is to use a Brodbeck or Nutting style seat. Not so much the shaped rails (but perhaps to some degree) but rather the non-hole, wrapped and woven cane style such as these:
Photos I've shamelessly lifted from several discussions here on the forum: Attribution to 1905Gerrish, Al Bratton, and Michael Grace respectively.
I note that in each case, the seat 'stretcher' is a dowel rather than a shaped piece like the rails. Some patterns have a 2x2 strand pattern, some 3x3. I think this is determined by the size of the cane used- perhaps 2x2 uses larger binding style cane. Knowledgeable folks are encouraged to chime in.
The next consideration is whether these seats are ridiculous in the Atkinson Traveler I'm building, or a welcome diversion from the typical cane patterns. Your thoughts?
Rollin Thurlow
member since 1980
They would looks quite spiffy in a Traveler. Go for it.
It's your canoe, go for it...
Benson
Benson
