Temperature range for fastening wood

[Bob Sherlock]

First year member here with a question that I haven't found in searching Forums:

Do I need to worry about cracking and splitting when working on an older canoe's wood in cooler temperatures such as 45 or 50 degrees F?

Specifically, I'll be fastening new inwales and decks to repaired and scarfed rib tips (using Spanish windlass here and there to tug things into position) and to new stem tips. Also, tacking on new sheer planking. Just a bit worried that older wood might be brittle if not warm.

I am working on a 1925 Old Town HW 16 footer. It's my first project. A lot of sentimental value -- I bought the canoe when I was 15 y.o. and enjoyed it greatly before selling it to a buddy in the late 1970s. I just got the canoe back earlier this year.

Lacking a workshop, I am doing the work in a garage. A space heater helps somewhat, but pretty soon I won't be able to get things very warm in there. The project is well along -- during warmer weather, I stripped fiberglass off the hull; replaced a dozen cracked ribs and 20-plus feet of planking; scarfed or repaired dozens of rib tips; stained the new wood to match the old; and spar varnished. Am trying to get new inwales and new decks installed before real winter sets in.

I'm really grateful for all the great advice I've found here at WCHA (personal shout-outs to come later). Could not have things where they are without the generous sharing of knowledge from so many of you!

 

[patrick corry]

Bob, I'm in the same circumstance re: a cold, unheated shop. I have done lots of restoration/woodworking in less than ideal conditions and the only restrictions I know of are those related to glueing, filling canvas, painting, varnishing, etc.

I have a canoe nearly ready for new canvas but I don't see the sense in canvassing now, in the cold, because I can't fill the canvas until Spring anyway. I would be concerned about the tightness of the canvas if it sits in the cold all winter. Canvassing for me is a single day project so there's no advantage in doing it now and waiting months for good weather. I'll just wait for Spring, stretch and fasten the canvas, then fill the canvas the following day.

 

[MGC]

Except to your hands, I'm not too sure that the temperature makes a significant difference, but the age and condition of the wood does. Old wood tends to be a bit brittle. You should consider predrilling.
I have a tendency to use old pieces of wood saved from other projects and when I do, I almost always predrill before I tack, and especially if I am working on a piece that is heavily shaped (round). To fit those pieces I use a damp/wet cloth and my waxing iron to form the planking, predrill and then tack it in place.
The other thing you need to watch for is the run of grain. I have had problems splitting newly sawn planking if I don't predrill. My rough cedar is quite dry so bending poorly sawn really dry wood will result in splits if it is not predrilled.
I used to keep a small wood stove in my garage. I fed it with wood scraps. It doesn't take much to make a big difference. A Harbor Freight salamander is also a good way to get heat into a cold garage. I'm with Patrick on waiting to canvas.
For doing the rails, you might have trouble if you can't get your steamer to pump out enough steam/heat.

 

[Bob Sherlock]

Thank you, guys! I have read quite a few of your past entries in Forums and appreciate you advising me, too.

I am learning woodworking as I go and don't have the capability to make gunwales. So along with other quality Old Town parts and raw materials, I bought inwales and outwales from Island Falls Canoe. Jerry Stelmok pre-bent them for me in the vertical plane. When the weather was still warm I did the bends in horizontal plane using the plastic bag steaming method I learned about here on Forums. It worked like a charm and I am hoping that the inwales and decks being pre-bent should help a lot.

I will pre-drill for all fasteners, for sure. Even in summer I split a plank before learning to pre-drill.

Once I have the inwales and decks installed, I plan to hang the canoe upside down from the garage ceiling and complete everything else in spring.

And will look into that salamander idea too, even for the near term work.

 

[MGC]

To each their own, but I tend to hang canoes right side up. I have 4 of them hung that way as I write.... reason being, I do not like a hogged hull. If the boat miss-shapes in the same plane as the rocker (presuming there is one) you will probably never notice it. If you end up with the classic saw horse hog, it stands out from a mile away... so I tend to hang the boats that I hang, right side up. Even on my racks or horses, I tend to store right side up. They do fill with junk, and dirt etc. but they don't get hogged.

 

[Bob Sherlock]

Hogged hull... interesting... another thing to educate myself on... thanks!

 

[Worth Gretter]

Bob, this post touches on a lot of items of interest to me!
First, steam bending with the plastic bag method. That has worked well for me in the past, and I am about to do it again, but not on a wooden canoe. My friend has her 8 foot fiberglass dinghy (yes, in my cold garage!) for restoration, and we cut the oak gunwales yesterday, so steam bending is next.
And the dinghy is hogged! About 3/4 inch, which is a lot over only 8 feet. However, I told her she will be OK for two reasons: 1) the boat is so short, and 2) the oars are long and of course controlled independently, so turning won't be the problem it would be in a badly hogged canoe that is twice as long and paddled.
P.S. I learned in naval architecture school that hogging was a real problem with wooden ships. That is counterintuitive since you would expect ships to be heavier in the middle (especially with cargo) and thus sag (the opposite of hog). They hog because the ends are only a little bit lighter but a lot less buoyant.

 

[Bob Sherlock]

Worth, this is interesting! My learning continues...

 

[Bob Sherlock]

MGC and Worth, thank you for alerting me to risk of hogged hull, which was new to me.

It looks feasible for me to suspend the canoe from the garage ceiling with four or more suspension points and am thinking of sewing canvas slings to further distribute the hanging pressures on the canoe. Will do a little more research. and plan to report back what I end up doing.

 

[Michael Grace]

Agreed about pre-drilling for fasteners in old wood and in red cedar (brittle), especially where fasteners are near edges and ends. Splits are frustrating but can be eliminated by proper pre-drilling.

Agreed too about "to each his own." I always store canoes upside down based upon direct experience with hogging (hogging that I've seen, not caused). Worth brings up a good point about large and lightly-built boats hogging in the water. Sharp ends have far less buoyancy than a larger, rounded center portion of a hull, and a transom's vertical structure supports itself. Thus the center is left to take far more upward force from water. Our wooden canoes usually don't spend their lives sitting on water, so the more important issue is storage.

Think about the forces acting on your canoe and you can predict what will cause hull shape change. The arch of steam-bent wooden ribs or sawn, curved wooden frames is considerable and they shouldn't experience hogging of protected from unreasonable outside forces. I don't believe gravity acting on the light frame of a well-built wooden canoe in proper protected storage will have any significant impact on the canoe's shape. It doesn't seem to in my experience. However, many times I've seen hogging from wooden canoes and boats being:

- left sitting right-side up on hard points (sawhorses, rack arms, etc.). The force of the canoe's entire weight being borne by only two points causes hogging, and this is exacerbated by anything left inside the canoe.

- left outside, upside down, in sun, rain and snow. The center collapses downward under its own weight in such a harsh environment, especially as it deteriorates from moisture and is subjected to added weight.

- stored upside down with things piled on top.

I have a great many canoes in dry, protected storage, sitting upside down on rack arms (two arms per canoe) or hanging, resting upside down on a pair of horizontal supports. I have never seen any evidence of hogging whatsoever under these conditions. Note that I never leave anything stored on top of a canoe, no weight pressing down on the hull. Similarly, I'd never add any weight inside a hull stored right-side up, even if it is on straps or fitted arms.

When I must store canoes right-side up (for display or active work), I use wide straps (like used for truckers' ratchet straps, about 4" wide), wide (3-4") strips of carpet, or shaped arms that hug the hull of the canoe, preferably at more than two points along the length (especially with very long, heavy, or delicate hulls).

Another person's approach, for what it's worth...

 

[Bob Sherlock]

Thank you, Michael, while I can't use rack arms right now your experience and tips are helpful -- and reassuring that I can get this old craft properly stored when I cease work on it for the winter.

 

[MGC]

Envision the weight of winter snow on a canoe rack or a canoe on horses under a tarp and it becomes quite easy to envision how many of them become hogged. When spring comes and that snow waterlogs and then freezes, it weighs a literal ton. Warm weather owners need not worry about that as we Northern clime folks must.
A hull that I removed (most of) the hogging from was stored for a long time in an indoor porch, partly disassembled, bottom side up. There may have been some items stored on it. Apparently, the owner confirmed that the hogging occurred from storing it on the horses.
When I hang my canoes (bottom side down) I generally attach my lines to the seat frames. I never use rope or webbing on the canvas in part because it likes to slip off of the smooth hull. I like the idea that the weight of the canoe is shared with the rails when I hang the canoe from the seat frames. I like that I can easily make sure the canoe is level by fiddling with the ropes.
Andre keeps trying to convince me to use big eyebolts firmly fixed square in the middle of the decks, but I never tie to the decks, not when transporting, lining or storing.
You can't make these things up. Last night my wife and I brought our pie pumpkins and our favorite, buttercup squash in to protect them from a freeze. I asked her to put them on cardboard in the garage. The cardboard was to keep them off of the cold concrete floor. Later, while we were out to dinner and chatting a bit I asked her if she had found my cardboard stash on top of my form. She had not. Turns out she put the squash and pumpkins inside my Gerrish. Not cool.

 

[Michael Grace]

OMG!!!

 

[chris pearson]

Geez Mike, hand on the stove burner for that one?

 

[MGC]

Geez Mike, hand on the stove burner for that one?

I'm still in shock. You literally cannot make this kind of stuff up. I had a bunch of cleaned and folded microfiber towels I use on my good car sitting in the canoe. Apparently, that was considered to be a preferred alternative to cardboard on the floor. Pie pumpkins!

 

[Dan Miller]

Sadly off topic, but Mike, you now have to do the experiment - to pies made with pumpkins aged on the floor taste different than pies made from pumpkins aged in a Gerrish? We're not going anywhere this year if you want a (mostly) unbiased taste-tester.

This is a long way away from driving fasteners in the cold. Having done so, the only harm in driving fasteners in the cold is imposed on those doing the driving. Brrrrr.

 

[Bob Sherlock]

Dan, I've rather enjoyed the way this thread has meandered... Lotta fun as well as informative!

 

[MGC]

I hadn't seen this yet so I went out and looked last night. She put a quilt and a fleece blanket under the squash. There may be hope for her.
Dan, the pies will do a ceremonial 81 drive by on the way to Hannawa on the 25th. Nevertheless, I plan to remove them today.

 

[Benson Gray]

she put the squash and pumpkins inside my Gerrish.

These things are less likely to happen if you hang your canoes upside down near the ceiling as shown at https://forums.wcha.org/attachments/30254/ and https://forums.wcha.org/attachments/30255/ for example. Just saying...

Benson

 

[MGC]

Or if you hang them right side up ....my garage has canoes hanging literally from every rafter and also stuffed between the rafters. I like to paddle the Gerrish so I keep it more accessible. The other canoes are a project to move or access. I need to move at least two or three to access any single one of them......