Help to Identify this Canoe

[Pamccolgan]

Hi everyone,

Doing some research on this canoe, does anyone know who the manufacturer might be? I believe it is most likely Carleton, but could potentially be a Morris made canoe. I estimate it is from the period 1904-1908, the serial number looks to be 3171, no other numbers are in the wood. It is 17ft long, about 34 inches at the Center and about 16 inches deep (Might be off a little). Thank you in advance to anyone who might be able to help

 

[Gil Cramer]

Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread!! To me looks like a Huron Canoe sent to Old town for repairs.

 

[Benson Gray]

This canoe has clearly had a few repairs over the years as Gil mentioned. The first digit is not the right shape for an Old Town or Carleton three from that era as shown below. The Old Town canoe with serial number 8171 is 16 feet long and the Kennebec is 18 feet. The Carleton is 17 feet long but it had a shoe keel. This canoe does not appear to have ever had any keel. What does the round tag on the bow deck say? Abercrombie & Fitch canoes often had tags like that. This is likely to remain a UFO and Gil's speculation seems reasonable.

Benson

 

[Pamccolgan]

Thank you @Benson Gray great catch, yes it was sold through A&F. This particular emblem would have been used in the period 1902-1906, maybe a tad longer. After 1908 they went to the standard AFCo logo that is common on many canoes. A&F wouldn't have constructed their own, but would have used a manufacturer. Their catalogs as of 1908 indicate they worked with Morris, but before that there is no mention of a company. Morris from what I understand used a plate for their serial numbers, but 3171 could potentially be one of theirs. There is no length number following the serial

 

[Benson Gray]

It could be the Old Town with serial number 3171 but there is no build record available to confirm this. The dimensions are close to the HW model as described at https://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/dimens-1.gif in the catalogs. This implies that it would have shipped before October, 1905 which matches the style of Abercrombie & Fitch tag. I'm not aware of any Morris serial numbers that were not stamped on metal tag and their stems were a considerably different shape. The first link below shows a variety of Morris tags and stems. The second link shows an Old Town canoe that shipped to Abercrombie & Fitch in 1906.

Benson

Post in thread 'How do I find a serial number on an old wooden canoe or boat?'

Jul 20, 2021

The Morris Canoe Company of Veazie, Maine is known to have used brass tags for their serial numbers in a variety of locations including the forward port gunwale, inside stem, and bow seat frame as shown below.

Benson

• Benson Gray

Thread 'A 15 foot long Old Town Charles River model in AA grade with sponsons from 1906'

Aug 19, 2014

The pictures below show a 15 foot long Old Town Charles River model in AA grade with sponsons from 1906. It originally shipped to Abercrombie & Fitch Company. The page at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/models.html estimates that less than 700 examples of this model and length were built between 1906 and 1911.

Benson

• Benson Gray
• Replies: 9
• Forum: Canoe Photo Index

 

[Pamccolgan]

Thanks @Benson Gray, really appreciate the feedback. I concur with what you think, Carleton/Old Town would be the most likely source, but with no other markings who knows. I believe this is what it is (this is from the 1904-1907 timeperiod:

But as you can see from this description there is not much other information.

Really appreciate your time in answering!

 

[Benson Gray]

Carleton canoes usually have heart shaped decks with a curved carry handle in the bow as shown at https://woodencanoemuseum.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/Carleton Deck 2.jpg for example. Carleton and Old Town were separate companies before 1910. Your canoe doesn't look like a Carleton to me.

Benson

 

[Dave Osborn]

Just observations…
Nail holes show evidence of rail caps.
Original seats and thwarts would have been countersunk. Decks could be replacements, but patina is consistent with age.
Is there a serial number on the opposite stem?
On a guess, it’s an old town with no build record.

 

[MGC]

I'm with Dave. Whatever it is, it's been "tweaked" quite a bit making ID a bit more of a challenge. That is not a deck you would find on a Canadian cane and clearly not a Morris.

 

[Pamccolgan]

Just observations…
Nail holes show evidence of rail caps.
Original seats and thwarts would have been countersunk. Decks could be replacements, but patina is consistent with age.
Is there a serial number on the opposite stem?
On a guess, it’s an old town with no build record.

Hi, 3171 is the serial on both ends...No length number

 

[Pamccolgan]

Does 3171 Show up for Old Town anywhere? How could I locate this?

 

[Benson Gray]

Does 3171 Show up for Old Town anywhere?

No, there are build records for serial numbers 3152 and 3185 but nothing for the numbers in-between. Old Town kept their serial number records on cards from 1905 to 1995 and these still exist. They used some other form of record keeping prior to 1905 which has not survived. There are several likely Old Town canoes from before 1905. Only five can be confirmed with a name plate on the bow deck. Sorry,

Benson

 

[Worth Gretter]

And what is the deal with the rib tops? Are they tapered down to almost nothing, or pocketed, or....?

 

[Pamccolgan]

Thank you @Benson Gray!

 

[Pamccolgan]

And what is the deal with the rib tops? Are they tapered down to almost nothing, or pocketed, or....?

I'll check next time I see it

 

[Pamccolgan]

No, there are build records for serial numbers 3152 and 3185 but nothing for the numbers in-between. Old Town kept their serial number records on cards from 1905 to 1995 and these still exist. They used some other form of record keeping prior to 1905 which has not survived. There are several likely Old Town canoes from before 1905. Only five can be confirmed with a name plate on the bow deck. Sorry,

Benson

if its easy to look, does 3185 indicate it went to A&F?

 

[Benson Gray]

does 3185 indicate it went to A&F?

No, it shipped to the Mount Pleasant Hardware Company in Mount Pleasant, New Jersey and 3152 shipped to the R. H. Macy's department store in New York City as shown below. It would be highly unusual for the canoes with more than ten sequential serial numbers to all ship to the same location.

Benson

 

[samb]

And what is the deal with the rib tops? Are they tapered down to almost nothing, or pocketed, or....?

On my early Chestnut the ribs are tapered down to nothing as they fix to the inwales then side and top rail caps. I imagine many other companies had the same techniques

 

[Worth Gretter]

Samb, thanks for the very clear photo!