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Cecofil & Latex Filler method

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by MikeCav, Aug 30, 2006.

  1. Ric Altfather

    Ric Altfather WCHA #4035

    Hey Gil,

    I have never seen Bakkor lagging adhesive but the Vamasco brand has 2% ethylene glycol in it's composition. I believe Dave Carnell wrote a paper on the use of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) as a preservative...I wonder if you could use regular canvas with that in mind?

    Just a thought,

    Ric
     
  2. Steve Ambrose

    Steve Ambrose Nut in a Canoe

    Mike/Dan, how has the Cecofill held up as compared to the traditional oil-based filler? I've been contemplating trying it and now have about forced myself into it to get a boat done for Santa.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    MikeCav

    MikeCav Restorer/Videographer

    Steve,
    The boat I used the Cecofil method on was not my own, I was doing it for someone else, but I saw the boat this summer and it still looked great. The owner reported no problems with leaking or paint blisters. Full disclosure, though. This is a very lightly used boat on a small lake. It's not a beater or even one that gets regular use.

    The fact that Dan M recommends this technique was a good endorsement.
     
  4. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    And I recommend it because I learned it from the Canoe Guru Chris Merigold. I've used the technique on a number of canoes, and while I was not able to keep any for very long, I have not had any complaints so far.... and will use it again when opportunity next arises.

    Dan
     
  5. Steve Ambrose

    Steve Ambrose Nut in a Canoe

    Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'll give Tom a call - I'll let you know how it goes!
     
  6. Tom Spicer

    Tom Spicer Curious about Wooden Canoes

    filler

    Steve, Please keep us posted. I am also thinking of trying this and would value your opinion. Tom
     
  7. Fritz Koenig

    Fritz Koenig get out and put in

    filler

    I used Stewart Systems Ekofil last spring over canvas. I have used the boat on river trips about twice a month since May. It has held up very well. I have scratched the paint up a bit on rocks and sand but it is just the paint. I did get bubbles after washing the boat out several weeks after I painted it but they dissapeared in a couple days. I assume, like another author, that the bubbles were from water trapped between the planking and the canvas.

    Good luck
    Fritz
     
  8. Steve Ambrose

    Steve Ambrose Nut in a Canoe

    Couple of notes:

    Tom McKenzie no longer sells the Ekofill because he lost his discount with Stewart so I bought direct. Tom told me it would take 2-3 quarts on canvas to fill a 15' boat and he was right. I used straight Ekofill instead of the Ekofill followed by the latex/spackle combination.

    Ekofill goes on much easier than traditional filler although I didn't gain any real time savings in the labor due to the higher number of coats (I actually lost track or gave up counting but it was probably 8-9). Maybe I wasn't applying it heavy enough but the manufacturer recommends light coats to build up to the desired fill. I never got there. The Ekofill never quite matched the results of traditional filler - I could still see slight texture but as I said I gave up and went to primer to finish the fill. It worked out fine and if what I peeled out of the bottom of my roller tray is any indication, Ekofill is tough stuff! Another caution regarding Ekofill's lack of build-up compared to traditional filler - it doesn't cover the tacks and canvas edge on the stems as well either. With Rollin's filler I've been able to build up and smooth the stems so the tacks and canvas edge almost disappear. The stem bands will cover what the Ekofill didn't but need to make sure you're lined up good!

    Two reasons I tried the Ekofill: weight savings and time savings. Labor was a wash if not more involved than traditional filler but I went from filler to paint in two weeks. It feels lighter but I'll post a comparison once I get a chance to weigh it against its cousins.

    I bought a gallon of the Ekofill because it was cheaper than buying 3 quarts. There's about 1/3 of a gallon left which Tom tells me should be enough to fill a boat covered in Ceconite (dacron) which will be an experiment for 2011 :cool:
     
  9. Tom Spicer

    Tom Spicer Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Cecofil & latex

    Thanks Steve. I think I will stay with the tried and true method. You saved me the anguish of wondering how it was going to workout. Tom
     
  10. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    Had you not skipped the primer/spackle step you would have had better results. This method works quite well when done properly...

    Dan
     
  11. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    I offer both traditional filler and the Ekofill process to my customers.
    I save 7-8 pounds on a Ekofill and primer fill job.
    In talking with others about this process I think they assume that the Ekofill is the filler. While it may fill and build up on dacron, it does not actually fill the whole weave of the much more coarse canvas. That is where the spackle and primer mix comes in.
    When I do this method, I do it slightly different than the way Mike describes it at the beginning of the thread. I use 3 coats of Ekofill, three coats of primer/spackle, and two coats of a Hi-Build oil primer prior to marine enamel..I find that I use fewer coats of marine enamel, because the surface is sanded and faired better after the primers than after traditional filler
    The result is a tough, light, smooth surface.
     
  12. Tom Spicer

    Tom Spicer Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Ekofill

    Thanks Dan And Dave for the input. I missed the fact that Steve did not use the spackling procedure. As if you can't tell I'm a newbie and will be covering my first canoe in the spring on what appears to be an undocumented (no numbers no diamond head bolts) 17ft. Octa. What Dave decribes sounds like something what I would be willing to try. Thanks, Tom
     
  13. Andy Hutyera

    Andy Hutyera The Red Canoe Guy - Life Member

    Mike,

    Missed you at the Assembly.
    I've gotten rather discouraged about the use of Dacron. I've always thought that one of the big advantages of Dacron was the weight savings resulting from not using traditional filler. My experience with Dacron leads me to believe that it's lack of toughness makes for a canoe that you have to use rather carefully. Your approach sounds like a great compromise between traditional filler and Dacron. I'm inclined to remove one of my Dacron covers and try your method.

    Thanks to both you and Dan for taking the time to put this all together!
     
  14. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    I may be talking out of school on dacron because I've never used it, but one of the other advantages is its mildew resistance. The draw back to dacron that I see is that it accentuates all of the tack heads, hammer blossoms, and plank seams. The thicker canvas "softens" the effect of those anomlies making them less noticable and more aesthetically pleasing to my eye. That is important to me. However, on a new, tight, fair hull, dacron may be the best choice.
    Use of the ekofill on canvas leaves the mildew question, unless you are using Rollin's treated canvas or find some way to treat the canvas prior to filling. (anybody know of a treatment?):confused:
    Although I believe ekofill has biocide in it, I always add some. I also add it to the primer mix. One other tip I can give on Ekofil is to use it very liberally on the first coat, so as to soak it as deep as possible into the canvas. Don't try to stretch it. It dries quickly, so you need to be fast and heavy with the first coat.
    I haven't tried it, but have considered thinning it with distilled water to make it soak in better and possibly slowing the dry time on the first coat. Subsequent coats will not "soak in", as the first coat becomes a barrier.
    Like Dan M. and Cavy, I have not had any issues with my own ekofill canoes or with customer canoes...(Knocking on wood!)
     

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