Thanks for all that share their knowledge freely.

J

JohnH

Curious about Canoe Design
What a great forum!
I enjoy paddling some of the rivers around me here in Missoura - Missou-rah loosely translated "people of the dugout canoes or rivers mouth"
Here is a photo of a bluff along the Big Muddy that has given me much joy to live near and raise a family close to the banks of Her life giving waters. You can't travel any of the rivers or streams here without seeing the faces of the people that came before us or First Nation Peoples.
The Ozark National Scenic Riverways is truly a jewel that I have also enjoyed over many years, in fellowships that I treasure.
River face.jpg


I own a Old Town or its owns me and I have laid down some Lines, Table of Offsets and a set of Section Molds off it for a canoe build and hope to find so guidance here on construction details in trade for what I know.
In the mean time I have been collecting western red cedar, osage orange and sassafras for a build. The years sure can go by fast you know.
Screen Shot 2025-05-03 at 12.40.43 PM.png


John Howland
Quoting Todd Bradshaw who quoted Harry Roberts
"As my late great buddy Harry Roberts once said," "There is a certain amount of magic in any canoe, but a wooden canoe is all magic."
 
Thanks John,
Here is my first attempt at a canoe build from lines lifted existing hull.
I faired the Table of Offsets lines in a Spreadsheet chart to 1/8". Then found a couple matches in the Copenhagen Ship Curves #42 and #48 to refine station mold curvature after taking off them off my canoe. All the station molds have the same curvature just moved in towards the center line fore and aft until you get to the stem. and that is where it comes down good construction details.
Not using a 3D design program. Poor folks have poor ways and it would take the sport out of if.
The canoe was a dry run because I'm thinking about a kayak instead. Have done some Buttocks, Waterlines, Diagonals drawing and Table of Offsets, but they always look like others design still. Construction plans and build will be much harder than a canoe. I will do some modeling to fine a construction modus of hoperandi of them before build that suits my shop space.
Here is one the best place I have seen for that.
Do designers do half model carving of canoe and kayaks?
What are the different hull shapes best for on the water?
Well, I have a hundred questions and I have so woodworking knowledge I would like to trade.
canoe.jpg
Screen Shot 2025-05-04 at 8.56.20 AM.pngScreen Shot 2025-04-30 at 11.18.06 AM.pngLion desk.jpg


I have designed some thing so I find some truth in this statement and find it offensive at it at the same time.
"Every boat is copied from another boat... Let’s reason as follows in the manner of Darwin. It is clear that a very badly made boat will end up at the bottom after one or two voyages, and thus never be copied... One could then say, with complete rigor, that it is the sea herself who fashions the boats, choosing those which function and destroying the others."
-Émile-Auguste Chartier

Not normally this long-winded.
John
 
JohnH said:
Do designers do half model carving of canoe and kayaks?
What are the different hull shapes best for on the water?
Click to expand...

Small boat designers typically don't carve half models. It is usually easy enough to build a full sized example for testing. There are an infinite variety of hull shapes so the 'best' one will depend on how it is to be used. Most canoe and kayak hull designs involve compromises. Many years ago Dan Miller put together an exhibit at the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton, New York titled "The Perfect Canoe" to show how much the concept of an ideal canoe had changed over the years. Canoes from the late 1800s were expected to be good for paddle racing, sailing, and sleeping in. Recreational canoes from the mid-1900s were expected to be very stable, so they tended to be wide with flat bottoms. Modern International Class Sailing Canoes have evolved to the point that they don't look anything like traditional canoes. Many new canoes are more narrow with rounder bottoms and some are asymmetric between the bow and the stern. The point is that people's needs aren't all the same and their expectations / requirements change over time. The rule of thumb is that a rounder hull will generally be faster but less stable than a flat bottom. Good luck,

Benson
 
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Benson,
Thanks for the references. The Antique Boat Museum historical articles, photos and artwork are particularly nice and looks like hours of entertainment.

That cold molded canoe above is a beauty. If it is hot molded from pre WWII.
My second photo from the top is a hot molded Jet 15' one class. My little Missouria River runner for 25 years on now. 3-6 knot current mostly here so you be going down river in less you can catch a back flow on the inside or tuck in behind wing dikes. Not many sailboats sail here on the Big Muddy. Well, I have never seen another sailboat here but there always hope.
Sometimes I almost think I can here Her the river laughing at me as she has carried me on my adventures in my little boat. She is not to be trifled with and you need to listen to her. I only go when the water is low so I can see the dikes and other obstacles and if she is going down or steady because of all the stuff and critters. I say that for thous that have not been on the big muddy because she can be cruel to the inexperienced as I have learned.

John
Some boats may have flaws or bad habits, but I still appreciating them for their unique qualities.
I stole this quote and broke it from Kenneth Grahame's Wind and the Willow.
 
Worth,
What a find. I would buy that and tell my wife that it just follow me home. Can we keep it?
Here are some Peanut Shell Prams. I was once an instructor and maintained boats at a small women's college from 1990-2000 teaching sailing and canoeing with 8 Old Towns from the 1930s and these 3 mahogany Peanut Shell Prams from from Sweden and a hand full of other small sailboats boats. I logged in a lot of hours.
Ten Foot Dinghy from Kindness they are between a sailing canoe and a twelve foot dinghy.
peanut shell prams.jpg
 
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I should have introduce my self a little more.
I owned a small 4 man custom design and build furniture shop for 20 years.
Here is a hand carved Gothic Armoire I designed built it seems like a life time ago.
A story in wood of the Arthur myth.
Gothic armoire Arthur myth.jpg

And after retirement I designed a lead sled Diotima a 26.5' LOA, 6.8 Beam, with 3 different configuration of hull materials, 3 sail plans, 2 different keels, many different set of Naval architecture design ratios, a half model, and 1/4 scale construction model... Too cheap to buy a 3d modeling program and it seemed like it would take the sport out of it. But I did use Spreadsheets to configuration the different material, sail plans for the many different Naval architecture design ratios and cost analysis.
After add it all up I decided that that I didn't want to lose that much money on a boat.
Diotima 2nd draft.png

1:4 scale Diotima.jpg

lines.jpg
 
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John, I could not afford the whole piece but I would take the two rosettes the two door panel inserts and the frieze work, PLEASE ?
Of like mind, I think. Welcome.
David
 
dtdcanoes,
Thank, After building things like this for many years for clients. I carved the Armoire out of some local black walnut for myself and took it home.
I will showoff one more but my wife says that my head is getting so big it may not fit through the any more soon.
This one more of my designs and was built by Howland, Baumstark and carving designed by my carving teacher Mary May. I was her first student and she use my shop to teach carving classes after a 4 year a apprenticeship or there about with Greek master. I owe her much as well my partner Mr. Baumstark and the many apprentices that we had.
Yes and those tigers are awesome. Doing one tiger is hard but the matching one is much harder.
She has a on line presents.
www.pbs.org

The Woodwright's Shop | Mary May, Woodcarver | Season 29 | Episode 5

A Charleston woodcarver shows how she creates details of delight.
www.pbs.org www.pbs.org

Mary May's School of Traditional Woodcarving - Video lessons from a classical woodcarver

Mary May's School of Traditional Woodcarving
marymaycarving.com marymaycarving.com
J Smith copy.jpg
 
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Dan,
I dove in head first in to Wooden Canoe Museum archives. Wonderful!
Thanks so much for your hard work. I will enjoy this sight for years.
 
Benson,
Boy, isn't that the truth. Nothing on a boat is done right till it is done at least twice. Design work can be mind-numbing at times and then Eureka!
Then back to the drawing board.
Thank for the quick reply. I have been using the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association off and on but without any particular goals.
I also draw all kinds of boats and getting reference material in ones head is paramount.
Here is NIÑA a W. Starling Burgess design the winner of the 1937 Fastnet Race off the Isle of Wight at the Needles Lighthouse. I did another in soft pastel of her at the Fastnet Rock Lighthouse/The Irish Teardrop. But this one is slow to finish. Photo is distorted bu my old I phone.
I will try to stick to the topic of canoes after this and the topic thread over all.
Thank you and Dan for sharing your knowledge.

NIÑA.jpg
 
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