Robertson serial number format question

[Benson Gray]

There has been much discussion in the past about Robertson canoes with a two digit number in the 30s that might be a width or a year. Can anyone confirm one where this number is significantly different from the width in inches? Some examples are shown below. Thanks,

Benson

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Benson,

The "33" and "35" could be year made, beam, model number, or something else. While it could be year, I've been doubting it just for statistical reasons...

I have four of these with numbers I can add. Photos to come later. The numbers are:

A21 33 16
A56 33 16
109 33 16
2585 17 33

For what it's worth, 2585 is the only one with a metal maker's tag, and it is Robertson. I don't think any of the others have a Robertson wavy stamp, but I can check to confirm.

For the one that is #3188 above, do you know what the center number is? Looks like maybe a "5".

Here are two more to add to the list:

527 35 16
3125 33 15

I don't think I have never seen a "34"; in fact, nothing other than 33 and 35. It is possible that these numbers represent year made. This seems unlikely though, if they did this even for only three years assuming equal output those three years. If that were the case, 33% of them should be 1934 models and for each canoe found, there should be a 2/3 chance that it's not a "34." The chance that all 14 out of 14 canoes identified thus are NOT from 1934 is about 0.34% (a third of 1%). If they used these numbers over a broader span of time than 1933-1935, the chances of finding only 33s and 35s just keeps getting smaller with each additional year.

 

[Benson Gray]

For the one that is #3188 above, do you know what the center number is? Looks like maybe a "5".

A five is also my guess for the hidden digit. I will be interested to learn if all four of your Robertson canoes are 33 inches wide. The link below has J. R. Robertson's obituary from July 18th, 1935 and some more information. Thanks,

Benson

Thread 'Robertson canoes'

May 28, 2019

Greetings,
Can someone direct me to the history of the J. Robertson canoe company? I just acquired a 16’ Robertson, closed gunwale, short deck canoe. Robertson is stamped into a thwart and there is a 4 digit serial number stamped into the stem.
Thank you,
Jody Bronson

• hornbeam
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Research and History

 

[Dan Miller]

Ken Kelly reported he had some that the number in question didn't match the beam: https://forums.wcha.org/threads/loo...with-long-decks-a-154-35-16.12417/#post-63402

Clarence Mather, formerly a boatbuilder in Rowley, MA, became the foreman at Robertson's in 1933 or 1934. That could correspond with the change in numbering format. The mid-1930s was in the midst of the Great Depression- perhaps there was no production in 1934?

 

[Michael Grace]

Yes, I was reading that post from Ken's post earlier today. Unfortunately there were no details but perhaps Ken has them in his files. Ken also mentions another (304 35 16) in that thread, in which he also says he has seen ones with numbers of 32, 33, 34, and 35:

R

Thread '16' J.R. Robertson found at a local auction recently...'

Apr 17, 2011

At an antique auction in Rhode Island last week I saw this wonderful Robertson sitting in the parking lot, and it was the first item to be sold. In looking at it closely, I saw that it had my name on it, so I bought it and brought it home to add to the other canoes I haven't restored yet. It is in very good condition, with no broken ribs, planking, or gunwales. It appears to have its original interior finish, and its original canvas. The gray paint is over what appears to be a light green hull, with a maroon stripe down the sides, edged with yellow or gold pinstriping.

In searching...

• rushton
• Replies: 26
• Forum: Wood and Canvas

We're now up to 15 canoes in the current thread here, and still only have numbers of 33 and 35. Can't wait to see some 32s and 34s if they are out there.

About the "A" designation, it doesn't seem to represent the grade because I have two with "A" designation and two without, yet all are mahogany-trimmed. Catalog language for the Robertson model goes like this: "Grade A: Cedar/spruce, Birds eye or mahogany trim copper fastenings Grade B: Maple seats, thwarts and decks."

One more thing - I personally just don't trust word-of-mouth histories. Ken mentioned a canoe with the number "35" in it, a canoe with family lore saying it was purchased from the factory in 1935. With no corroborating evidence I just can't put any weight in these things. There are so many reasons why a family might come with with a date like this, including that the number "35" is there. Circular reasoning - the number must be the year built because the canoe was purchased in 1935 (an n of 1, even if true), and we know it was purchased in 1935 because of its serial number.

Yes, I'm a skeptic. I don't trust anything that's based in often flawed human memory and desire. Just recently I was discussing the actual 10th canoe built by Old Town, number 10 out of the factory - WOW! Ummmm, except it wasn't.

 

[Benson Gray]

Just recently I was discussing the actual 10th canoe built by Old Town, number 10 out of the factory

There is a build record for the Old Town canoe with serial number ten as shown below but it shipped in 1928 so clearly isn't the 10th one built by Old Town.

The All Cedar models had their own sequence of serial numbers, just to confuse things. Their records are stored with the repair records. Searching for this one also uncovered two Robertson canoes that came in for repairs with serial numbers that ended with 35 as shown below.

The early 1930s was an exceptionally difficult time in the canoe business as Dan mentioned, which may explain the lack of any Robertson canoes with a 34. The chart at the link below shows the Old Town and Canadian production levels during that era.

Benson

Post in thread 'Tariffs and their impact on canoe distribution'

May 18, 2019

The Canadian government started keeping canoe production statistics in 1920 as I found at https://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/16206/ recently. I was able to locate comparable numbers for Old Town and the Canadian builders from 1920 to 1933 as shown below. (They skipped 1923 for some reason and stopped listing canoes separately in 1934.) It is interesting how closely the sales of canoes in these two markets aligned even though they didn't really compete with each other very much. The Great Depression was not an easy time to be in the canoe business as I mentioned before...

• Benson Gray

 

[Michael Grace]

Interesting that these two canoes came in for repairs at OT ad they have "35" in the number, but this doesn't provide any more insight into the issue. And the drop in production going into the early 30s is interesting but only part of the picture. What happened in 1933, 1934, 1935 and forward? But even knowing this about OT and Canadian production doesn't provide any direct evidence about what was going on at the Robertson shop (or in the Charles River area generally). I'm not trying to be a naysayer. I've been fascinated by these three-part numbers for decades and I'm still hoping that someday some tangible evidence will surface (but not holding my breath).