Penn Yan Rainbow RC515 Outside Stem dimensions and Seat Questions

[Sandon or Sandy]

I am going to be restoring this Penn Yan Rainbow, RC515. Overall, it is in good condition. I know I will need to work on the tips of the gunnels and probably a couple of backside rib repairs.

1. Stems: I don't have the dimensions for the original stems. I can see from reading, mainly Howie's posts, that there are around 1/2 x 7/8. Is this correct? I will be bending out of some air-dried White Oak, probably, as I have some.

2. Keel: There was one originally. My thoughts were not to replace the keel for my own paddling preference. (I know it's my boat and my choice)

3. Seats: I'd like to know how the original seats were made. The stern seat has holes drilled through a groove. The bow seat has holes drilled through, but outside of a groove. I am curious as to what was the original design - grooved with splines or just weaved through the holes.

4. I know from the serial number that this boat was built between 1948 and 1960. Does anyone have any thoughts on a more accurate year it may have been produced?

5. Paint will probably be Penn Yan Red and I feel I will need a design.

Thank you,

Sandy

 

[Howie]

The original seats likely used machine made cane webbing - so the grooves are original and held the cane webbing. What likely happened is that the cane broke, and rather than replacing the webbing they decided to add the holes and weave the cane seat by hand. So you have 3 choices: plug the holes and replace the cane webbing, plug up the grooves and cane by hand using the holes, or make new seats. And if the latter you need to choose to use machine made webbing or hand caned webbing. If it was me it'd be a no brainer - seats are easy to make if you have a table saw, and I'm not a fan of the machine made cane and would much prefer to weave the webbing by hand. Also it's much much easier to make the seats with holes rather than machining in the grooves.

The Rainbow is a really nice canoe BTW...

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

Howie, thank you very much for the quick response. I have seen your posts specifically on the Penn Yan Rainbows. I am probably gonna retain the original seat frames. The wood is good. I got the approximate dimensions on the stems from your post as well. So thank you very much for posting that as well. The forum is a nice resource.

 

[Howie]

You betcha! And I agree, this forum is great. I've learned so much...

I'm wondering... Take a very close look at the channels in the seats. If someone wasn't very careful when they removed the old webbing and binder they may well have damaged the channel enough that it's unusable. The key to removing the old seat is to use hot water or steam to loosen the glue used to hold the binder cane in place, and then carefully remove the cane without damaging the channel. And even steam/hot water won't work if someone used a high strength glue like Tightbond. If the channel width isn't consistent and/or the proper width then you may have a hard time pressing the binder in place. I just had to chuck seats from an OT Yankee for exactly that reason. Plus I'm wondering if you'll be able to fill in the holes in the front seat well enough to like the results.

But whatever you do, have fun with it!

 

[Rob Stevens]

As Dave and Ben have said here (https://forums.wcha.org/threads/pressed-seat-removal-lacing-replacement.19851/#post-104503 ), secure the joints. One option that can save a lot of work is flipping the seats and re-cane. You might want to fill the spline groove, or not.

 

[Gary]

Hi Sandy, thank you for posting this, what a beautiful canoe! I love the lines and the extended curve of the ends. Looking forward to seeing updates of your progress and the finished version of this amazing canoe.
Gary

 

[Worth Gretter]

Regarding the stems, I have two suggestions:
1) Don't taper or bevel the stems until you have steam bent them, because if they split when you bend them, then all the tapering and beveling work is wasted.
2) If you have trouble bending them, then laminate them. Just cut 2 slits in the piece of wood, most of the way back (except for the straight part that sits on the ribs), steam bend it, then epoxy the slits.

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

Thank you Worth! Good Advice.

 

[MGC]

Sandon,
I do not see the reason for replacing those stems? From what I can see, they look pretty good. Is there something going on with them that is not immediately obvious?
WRT the seats, I am always obsessed with originality. One of the things that I like about PY canoes is how well they matched the mahogany. For that reason, I would be trying to use the existing seat frames.
I loathe machine made cane, but on one of these canoes, that is what they came with. I'd be leaning towards plugging the holes and using the pressed cane to repair what you have.
The keel, if you have it, restore it and store it. It can be installed later if someone who enjoys fighting a keel wants it.

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

MGC,
Originally there were outside stems and a keel. When I got it first, the keel was gone and very little was left of the outside stems, and what there was just crumbled. Frankly, I was surprised at the outside keel rot and the almost lack or any other rot. The inside stems are pretty good overall, but one will need a little scarf as well as to just a bit of the deck, though most of this will be covered by the stem bands.

The Seats I really like, they do match and the shape on them is very pleasing. I think I will take your suggestion and plug the holes and then use pressed cane. Do I dare ask the best source of pressed cane to match the Penn Yan cane?

Thank you,

Sandy

 

[Howie]

As to a source for cane - either strands or machine made - I order on-line from CountrySeat.

 

[MGC]

Ah...outside stems. That makes more sense. You should have no problem making replacements and it is far less invasive work.
The Penn Yan cane is somewhat specific. I am not aware of a direct match that is available. My experience with Penn Yan canoes is very limited. The last one I had was restored by Howie who I see just posted with a caning source.

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

Howie and MGC, Thank you both!

 

[Howie]

I should have pointed out that you'll want the 1/2" pre-woven type to match what Penn Yan used. You'll also need binder cane that's appropriate for the width of the channel in the seats. The binder comes in different widths, is cheap, and can be bought it small lengths, so maybe buy a few sizes so you'll have a selection of widths to try out. Lots of places on-line to show how its done. But be forewarned - its very easy to end up with saggy seating. Order more than you need so you can experiment. Guess my main advice would be to make sure you leave the cane in hot water for maybe 20 minutes or more before using it so it'll shrink a bit when it dries - this'll tighten it up. Also get the mat to lie as flat as you can (it comes rolled up which is not helpful) before you put on the binder cane. O - and the binder cane is held in with glue that loosens with heat/hot water - helpful for other restorers down the line. DO NOT USE TIGHTBOND!!! Elmer's glue should be ok, but you can buy special glue too.

The Country Seat: Cane - Prewoven / Sheet / Mesh /Spline

I find the process very tedious and frustrating. Hand caning is easier. So just remember, worse comes to worse you can just make new seats - assuming you have the tools.

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

Howie, thank you very much for all the advice. I appreciate it. I have hand woven, but it's been many many many years ago. I still have some supplies, but I know it is all dried out. I will take your advice and thank you for the link to the website.

Also, I was never happy with the hand caning that I did on my OTCA seats many years ago, so maybe it's time to lay in supplies to do that as well. The seats have held up well, but I think i used too small of a cane and I don't like the looks of it. I overheard Benson say to somebody who had asked him about Old Town caning patterns, and he said the factory just pieced the work out to local inhabitants, kind of a cottage industry, so that not all the patterns were always the same. So I think that gives me license to maybe if I do the OTCA in a different sort of unique pattern. Might be fun, might not.

And yes, I do have the tools, but I would like to keep the original seat frames, to me and my eye, they are too pretty and the woodgrain matches so well.

Thank you again for the advice and the link. And yes, the forum is a great resource.

 

[Benson Gray]

the factory just pieced the work out to local inhabitants, kind of a cottage industry, so that not all the patterns were always the same

Yes, the picture at https://forums.wcha.org/attachments/seat-jpg.9020/ shows an unusual variation including corner holes. The link below has more about this canoe.

Benson

Thread 'Old Town 127036'

Nov 2, 2009

Steve Lapey and I went on a little fact finding mission today and found another great story. Can you dig up the Build Record for this one? Should be an AA Grade 20 foot Guide.

• Fitz
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Serial Number Search

 

[Sandon or Sandy]

Benson Thank you.