Old Towne Canoe on eBay

Yes, it could be a steal, because we sure don't know much about this canoe. The seller doesn't say anything that might be gleaned if we knew the serial number... or if there were more pictures, which might be "worth a thousand words."

...OR the canoe could be a complete mess, not worth the bucks already bid on it.

I have my doubts about it being 14 feet long. Seems to me that the length of the canoe should be something a seller is definite about.

Hopefully, the buyer will request the build record here in Forums.
 
This is located about 2 hours' drive from me. I'm no expert, but may be able to do a drive-by, if someone is seriously interested. What better way to learn, than to help other people spend their money??? :D
 
Benson -

I noted there were 41 bids on the auction, and the canoe sold for $465. As to who the high bidder was, the identity is kept private - new eBay rules. I did note that it was a last second bid. The listing did mention there was a serial number, but it wasn't given. Too bad.

Rich :)
 
I'd written the seller and asked for the serial number... he posted my letter. Because some eBay sellers do that (post the questions they get), I like to use that as a tool to get the word out re WCHA and whatever else might help the ol' canoe get into "the right hands".

Anyway, the seller reminded me he was in Florida and he apparently didn't know anyone in Wisconsin who could take more pictures or write down the serial number.

It's reasonable to be suspicious of eBay offerings when the seller posts only one really bad picture, knows nothing about the canoe, lives across the country from the canoe, says buyer must pay cash right away but can wait until summer to pick it up, says he's selling it "for a friend"... writes in allCAPS and uses lots of exclamation points!!!.... and spells Old Town "Oldtowne"... sigh. I hope someone didn't get ripped off, one way or another.
 
I opened the bidding last week. I was willing to take a risk and was ready for a last minute bid, but the price got higher than I wanted to spend, considering the lack of info and poor photo.
Not sure who won it.
Dave
 
Kathryn -

You're so right about being extra careful when bidding on eBay, or buying from any other on-line source for that matter. Buyer beware has never been so true nowadays! As a long time buyer/seller on eBay, I've ran across many scams over the years. I agree that I hope this sale was legit and whoever won the auction is satisfied with the results. Who knows, an inquiry may show up here on the boards to help identify.

Rich :)
 
Canoe Crimes Website Section?

I hope the winning bidder will furnish the serial number to a member in the WCHA who can get the winning bidder Old Town's build record. If so, the new owner may want to contact the original owner of record for information about the history of the canoe since its build.

I communicated with the seller of this canoe several times during the auction by email and telephone. As the canoe was located three hours distant from me in Wisconsin (which does not require canoes to be registered), I offered to drive to the canoe, get the serial no. from the stem, and send it to him for for posting on the listing. He was not interested, even when I offered to take some detailed digital pictures of the canoe and send them to him so he could add them to his listing.

That, and several other things in our conversation, raised a red flag for me that the seller may not have had clear title to the canoe, and was hoping for a quick and uneventful sale, without prying eyes involved.

Regardless of whether that was the case or not here, should the WCHA create a website section where victims of "canoe crimes" can list identifying information (and maybe pictures if available) about valuable canoes they have had stolen?

Gary
 
Registry?

Dan is probably correct, and I'm not implying that this seller was anything other than indifferent.

But in the event of actual canoe theft, is there any type of registry where a victim can report the crime other than his local police department?

I know of two expensive wooden canoes stolen in my area just in the last year. Both were Old Towns and both parties were going to contact Old Town to report the thefts. Does Old Town have any mechanism to document such thefts?

Gary
 
I spoke with the seller a couple of minutes before the auction ended (had called earlier, but no answer; he called back). I had no plans to bid on it, was just interested in the serial number & condition of the boat. I indicated the picture looked like the canvas wasn't in that good shape, but he assured me it was. He was very interested in having me bid on it, of course, and then I asked about its history. He claimed he didn't know anything about its history, didn't know if the owner was the original, and he ended the call fairly quickly after that.

Maybe he ended the call hoping I'd put in a bid, or just wanted to see the end of the bidding process, which was very close, at that point. I don't know what that tells us about the boat, or its "legal" status. Just seems odd.

Does anyone know what legal recourse a buyer would have, if Ebay merchandise turns out to be stolen? I suppose that's a question for either the Ebay people, or your state's attorney's office. Ugh...
 
I too placed a couple bids on this canoe and spoke with the seller in Fla. I also mentioned the canvas and he didn't disagree. He told me if I won the bidding and after paying, saw the canoe and felt it was not worth it, I could refuse it and get my money back. But I wasn't convinced this would be an easy matter with him.
The picture looks like Sanford and Son just cleaned out a barn and the canoe sat on top of the pile of trash.
I was willing to pay $200 sight unseen. But by the end of the auction, the price started going up. It is 45 minutes from me and the seller told me, once I paid, he would give me directions and I could pick it up from the barn it is in.
Now I need to find my next project.
Howard
 
EBay has a "Resolution Center", which seems to be their way of trying to mediate disputes between buyers and sellers... but my guess is this only works if both parties are honest and there's just some kind of misunderstanding. EBay will bar sellers who are reported for selling things they don't actually own.

There's a certain Rice Lake canoe that pops up on eBay from time to time.... and we know who really owns it... once the bogus listing is reported to eBay, they remove it, but that doesn't stop the crook from listing it again under a new handle. I tend to be suspicious of "zero feedback" sellers with a high-priced item.

A few years back, eBay informed me that I had listed a very expensive Mercedes for sale. Someone had gone in under my eBay handle and feedback score and listed a $40,000 car! This obviously set off bells and whistles at eBay, so they contacted me to verify if it was truly my listing.

Howard-- We have a Shell Lake that needs a friend... a really GOOD friend, who can see past the fact that it's a mere shell of a Shell Lake...

Kathy
 
garypete said:
Does Old Town have any mechanism to document such thefts?
Click to expand...

The policy at Old Town in the past was to add a note to the back of the build record but I don't know if they are still doing this. The thread at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=2907 describes a stolen canoe with a note like that which surfaced many years later.

The police maintain a nation wide database with the serial numbers of stolen items that can be used for this purpose. I would also encourage anyone to post a message in the serial number forum if their canoe has been stolen so we all can keep an eye out for it.

This auction did seem supicious but it is important not to jump to conclusions as described at length in the thread at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=3864 titled Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware).

Benson
 
Gary raised a pertinent question earlier about creating an area where someone could post a notice of a stolen canoe. That sounds like a reasonable request, depending upon input from the webmaster.

Going one step further, has there ever been any thought given to creating a WCHA registry? It could be restricted to members only, or extended to non-members at a reasonable cost. Each canoe registered could utilize a "data card" type of entry, showing make, model, year, serial number, etc., and include maybe up to 4 photos. Perhaps a brass plate with the registration number could be issued, too.

Just a thought. I know that car collector groups have similar registries.

Rich
 
I think it'd be a great resource, and compiling a list of what boats exist would be interesting too.

The obvious question is, who's going to administrate this?
 
BadgerBoater said:
Gary raised a pertinent question earlier about creating an area where someone could post a notice of a stolen canoe. That sounds like a reasonable request, depending upon input from the webmaster.

Going one step further, has there ever been any thought given to creating a WCHA registry? It could be restricted to members only, or extended to non-members at a reasonable cost. Each canoe registered could utilize a "data card" type of entry, showing make, model, year, serial number, etc., and include maybe up to 4 photos. Perhaps a brass plate with the registration number could be issued, too.

Just a thought. I know that car collector groups have similar registries.

Rich
Click to expand...

It's been done before (anyone remember Julie?), discussed at length several times since then, and the short answer is that it doesn't work. Partly due to privacy concerns, but mostly because canoes change hands so regularly that the database is out of date before the first batch of data is collected.

Regarding a "Stolen Canoe" forum, we have always allowed posts to be made regarding notice of stolen canoes. I am reluctant, however,to add another forum category specifically for that because we are have too many forums, the amount of traffic wouldn't warrant another forum category, and I am leary that postings of "suspicious activity" would lead to another witch hunt, as this thread is on the verge of becoming.
 
BadgerBoater said:
has there ever been any thought given to creating a WCHA registry?
Click to expand...

This topic has come up frequently and has been done at least once before as Dan mentioned. One obvious issue is that it can take a lot of time to manage well. The old list of the WCHA members' canoes is available. See the article starting on page 14 of the Wooden Canoe Journal Issue number 42 for more information about the beginning of this WCHA list in 1990.

However, if there is anyone who wants to take this on then there are many people who might be able to help. I have tried to keep track of the early or unusual Old Town, Carleton, and Kennebec canoes on a very informal basis, Dan Lindberg keeps a detailed list of the Seliga canoe owners, Andreas Jordahl Rhude tracks Thompson canoes, Kathy Klos is building a list of Morris canoe owners as described at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=4117 as well as Veazie and Gerrish canoes, Denis Kallery tracks Detroit and Racine canoes, John and Dorothy Strasser track St. Louis Meramec canoes, and many other people track other manufacturers. See page 14 of the Wooden Canoe Journal Issue number 144 for more information about some of these efforts.

Benson
 
I'm also keeping a registry of Charles River-area canoes (courting and non-courting canoes). There seem to be few enough that I haven't felt it necessary to make requests for info... but since we're on the topic, please contact me if you have a canoe by Waltham, Robertson, Brodbeck, or any other maker in our around the Boston area. I'm also including any canoes known to be made in the courting style, even if the makers are not from the Charles River area (such as Kennebec and Detroit). Your canoe may already be there, but it can't hurt to confirm.

While I agree with all that's been said about a canoe registry, it certainly would be possible to keep an extensive database. The ACBS (Antique & Classic Boat Society) does it and does it very well, maintaining a massive list of boats along with data on the boats, as well as motors by themselves. They deal with privacy concerns by asking members whether they wish to have their information published, and if so, how much of it. They simply don't worry about the changing of boat ownership because each year when a person renews his or her membership, the member has the opportunity to change their boat list.

Here's where I think the difference is, though- while the ACBS list is much larger than the WCHA's would be, the ACBS is a much larger organization with much greater resources. If the WCHA attempted to do this in any serious way (analogous to the ACBS plan), I'm afraid membership dues would have to increase to such a level that some members may be driven away. I like the idea, but it may not be practical to maintain such a directory for an organization like ours. Of course I may be wrong... just my off-the-cuff thoughts.

M
 
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