Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware)

Hi All,


I recently purchased an all wood canoe, of a type I have been wanting for years. I knew of one for sale "up north", and had contacted the seller a couple of times, but the timing was never right. Recently I decided the time was right, and after talking to the seller, decided to go for it. I asked the seller to send pictures, which he was happy to do. I also asked what problem areas the canoe had, and was assured that there were not any. The canoe had been painted on the inside, and had a keel replacement as well as poorly shaped kingplanks.I figured "Ok, a strip and revarnish". I then asked specifically if the planking was in good shape, with no cracks or anything. My first mistake. The seller picked up the canoe from where it was stored, and then sent me an email saying that there was an area of patched planking, and he sent pictures of that area. I decided I could live with the patch, especially considering the canoe is about 100 years old. The seller stated that he was sure I would be happy with the canoe, and said he would work with me should I not be happy. The seller was kind enough to transport the canoe across the border, and meet with KAS Transport at a location they arranged. I was very appreciative of this.

I received the canoe last week. I was initially pleased, then I looked inside. There was angle iron securing the stems. There were 2 patches scabbed onto the inside of the planking up by the bow seat. (The stated planking repairs were midships) Upon further examination, it became apparent that the exterior stems had been deleted at some point, and that the planking of the canoe had been trimmed back by about 1 1/2 inches on each end to allow for a piece to be scabbed on. This piece does double duty as interior/exterior stem, thus necessitating the angle iron to hold the stems of the canoe together. NONE of this was mentioned by the seller, yet it is a fundamental alteration of the canoe, and could definitely be called "a problem area".

I contacted the seller to voice my concerns,and asked for a price adjustment. After a few e mails back and forth, it became apparent the seller had no intention of working with me at all, other than to offer first choice on any other interesting canoes. I then proposed that I return the canoe, and pay for half the shipping costs back. I figured that that was fair, after all, I wasn't the one to omit grossly pertinent information. The seller responded by saying he would take the canoe back, refund my purchase price, but only after he inspected the canoe for "non visible damage"! He also stated that he would not cover any of the cost of getting the canoe out to him. (about 600 bucks).

SO, I have a canoe I paid too much for, that the seller misrepresented, and I'd be out about 900 bucks on after all was said and done if I returned it. Nice deal, huh?

My advise in dealing with long distance deals. #1, GET IT IN WRITING!, #2, CHECK THE SELLERS REPUTATION. #3, ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS, EVEN THE STUPID SOUNDING ONES. #4, GET IT IN WRITING!

Mark

Ouch!

Hi Mark,

I am very sorry to hear this since it is the nightmare of anyone who has ever even considered buying a canoe without the chance to inspect it in person first. Even pictures fail to show everything. I have only purchased two old canoes sight unseen and each was worse than I expected although both together were not nearly as bad as your experience.

One way to view situations like this is as 'cost averaging' over a long term. The idea is that in some deals you pay too much and in other deals you pay very little but you really needed to look at the total cost of your collection versus the total value when thinking about the real impact of one bad deal.

Thanks for the reminder to be careful,

Benson

This is a painful lesson, but difficult to avoid completely when buying sight unseen. Your advice is good, Mark.

I made a canoe purchase after asking about 4-5 things that appeared to be problems from what I could see in photos. The seller assured me that none of the issues I raised were problems at all, but every one turned out to be true. I had forewarned myself, and I knew that the seller was not a knowledgable wooden canoe person. He was just the seller of a nearly 100-year-old canoe that had belonged to his father decades before.

I wasn't unhappy with my purchase because despite the seller's statement, I knew what I was getting into. If, however, I had bought a canoe from a knowledgeable wooden canoe person who failed to disclose serious problems, I would be very upset. Comments, Mark?

Despite its problems, Mark, you do have a wonderful old wooden canoe of a fairly rare type. Remember the complete rebuild posted here in the past... I'm sure you'll do your canoe the justice it deserves!

Michael

I bought a recumbent bike for my (Evil Ex-) wife a few years ago. Great brand, guy ran a bike shop in Ontario, great price. Bought it through E-bay. Got ripped off.

Turned out that about 12 of us got ripped off by the same guy repeatedly listing the same bike and never shipping it. He had a couple, but somehow the serial numbers had been ground off and he couldn't ship them over teh border.

One of the folks he robbed contaced all the rest, the RCMP, the FBI and the Toronto Police. The guy had a hard luck story, but Ebay and Pay Pal were no help because the guy was in hock up to his hairline and had no cash in the bank. We ended up getting our cash back after going through a long appeal with VISA, supplying e-mails, police phone #s and case numbers, etc. Took about 3 months, but we didn't lose anything, other than she didn't get the birthday present she wanted and that I thought I had purchase.

Tough lesson, and you can't always see these things coming.

You pays yer money and you takes yer chances.

Fortunately most folks are pretty decent.

PS - If anyone is ever buying a canoe long distance from a buyer up here in northern Michigan I'd be happy to look at it for you. I belong to a Jeep club that does that routinely for each other. You would have to promise to buy me a frosty adult beverage if we ever meet, but if you can live with that I'm happy to help.

That is really unfortunate but brings up an interesting point. Although it is too late this time for Mark, Brian's offer is a good idea and I would suggest that if you or anyone else find themselves in a long distance transaction with doubts or questions try posting here to request an inspection by someone in the area. I betcha you'd get a few responses from the friendly folks here and (as long as they didn't buy it out from under you first!) you would probably get a objective knowledgeable report.
And, like Brian, if convenient and in the Ottawa, Ont. area, I could offer my husband's services!

Hi All,

The thing about this is that the seller has a business specializing in selling wood canoes. He KNOWS what he has to sell, and the condition of his canoes. If he doesn't, I'd be truly shocked at the evident level of ignorance. There is a web site, the whole nine yards, and he posts on these boards. I feel that the problems with the canoe were not mentioned in order to make the sale, at the price I paid. Had I known of the problems, I sure as hell would have offered less than what I paid, had I even decided to make the purchase. It really wasn't a matter of needing a look from a knowledgeable person, as the assumption was that the knowledge was there to begin with. I made the mistake of trusting an established business man, and I paid for that blind trust.

Mark

Hi Mark,

As I said to you yesterday, I am sorry to hear about your bad experience and chocked to see the condition of your purchase.
It is equally sad to hear about the seller's unwillingness to do the right thing!
I sincerely hope that the seller has a change of heart and decides to live up to the same ethics that I am sure the rest of us subscribe to.

I will also add my name to the list of people who are willing to inspect canoes, for other WCHA members, within a reasonable distance of my location.


Dick Persson

unscrupulous , no, downright dishonest ! !

Mark,

I know you are reluctant to name this individual on an open forum but I for one would like to know who he is so that I do not get victimized as you did. If he did this to you he will do it to others. Hearing that he regularly sells canoes as a business and is a poster on this forum is of major concern. Fellow WCHA members should not have to worry about being ripped off if there is something ostensibly nice that this seller has that they have been waiting for. Please seriously consider sending me a personal email (esmjmoses@aol.com) so that I can be extra wary and careful if and when I might want to buy something this guy has to offer.

I like Brian's offer. I also will offer to do an inspection and photograh canoes, for other WCHA members, say within 100 miles of my location in southern NH to assist those from away that might want a canoe located in Mass., NH, Maine, RI & Conn.

Ed

Ed Moses said:

I like Brian's offer. I also will offer to do an inspection and photograh canoes, for other WCHA members, say within 100 miles of my location in southern NH to assist those from away that might want a canoe located in Mass., NH, Maine, RI & Conn.

Ed

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AND, because I'm a very generous guy, if you are willing to pay for my expenses I would also be willing to go look at canoes in the Caribbean (Nov. - April) northern Minnesota or Canada (May - October) or the British Isles and most of Europe.

Mark Adams said:

I made the mistake of trusting an established business man, and I paid for that blind trust.

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I have made that same mistake also if it is any consolation. Several years ago a WCHA member asked me to loan a brass Carleton name plate to an established business man to make a reproduction. I knew of the business, had seen their web site, and even met the owner in person at a wooden boat builder show. I sent the plate to him with full tracking and insurance on the package. He made the reproduction but I never got the original back. He claims that he sent it to me with no tracking or insurance and that it was lost in the mail. I have since met other people who have had the same problem with this business. This is never an easy lesson to learn even though the value of my brass plate is much less than your canoe.

Let me also add my name to the list of people who are willing to inspect local canoes as others have offered.

Benson

Denis and I would love to check out canoes for anyone buying something in our area-- Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

This is a great advantage to being part of the WCHA Community-- we watch out for each other.

I like Benson's philosophy of "cost averaging". We have a canoe we refer to as "the shell of a Shell Lake"-- because that's what it is. Bought it for $125, sight-unseen, because we trusted the word of the seller that it was a nice, restorable canoe. The seller actually should have said, "come get it, and I'll pay your gas."

That $125 was totally averaged-out when Denis asked the price of our Old Town HW and the owner said, "I'll help you load 'er up!". Overall, I'm sure we're ahead.

I really like that there is a growing network of people who are willing to inspect canoes for sale. This would have really helped me out! I would be happy to inspect canoes in my area too, although I think I have most of the wood canoes in Nevada!

There don't seem to be too many in the Tahoe area, oddly enough. At the Tahoe boat show, there is one guy that has the same old Old Town that is a 1923 or so, and has been fiberglassed. One of these years, I'll take some of mine up there and show the crowd that a nice boat doesn't have to run on 85 octane!

Ontario

Mark, sorry to hear of your plight.
If you (or anyone else) locate a boat in or around Toronto, I'd be pleased to view it and send you a photo essay of it, hopefully allowing for an informed choice to buy or pass on it. And with my growing list of projects, you're not in much danger of me taking it out from under you...

Andre Cloutier said:

Mark, sorry to hear of your plight.
If you (or anyone else) locate a boat in or around Toronto, I'd be pleased to view it and send you a photo essay of it, hopefully allowing for an informed choice to buy or pass on it. And with my growing list of projects, you're not in much danger of me taking it out from under you...

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Yeah, that pretty much has to be an unbreakable rule. No buying a boat out from under someone who sent you to look at it, unless they decide to pass, of course.

And NO, it is not Okay to photoshop the pictures so the canoe looks crappy!

I already know where Mark's canoe came from and will let Mark mention who it was if he chooses to, but I have a question for Benson.

I have items that I might have reproduced and I'd sure like to know who not to send them to.

I would not be as forgiving as yourself if someone forgot to send back my original Willits tag. Or if it did happen and it was the same guy you used, I'd be upset with you too.

Why do we have this fear of outing these people? You can not be sued for slander or held liable if your statements are true. Plus those mentioned have an open forum to rebut anyone's statement.

To you Mark I find it difficult to mention that you may have had some warning about this canoe. I had personally inspected your canoe a few years ago. I recently spoke to a mutual friend who has also posted on this tread. That person voiced interest in the canoe and I told him not to buy it but did not go into great detail. I don't know the content or your conversations together, and I don't know if he mentioned my name, but I'd have been happy to speak to you about the canoe.

The comment about fudging the pictures to make the canoe look bad or the fear of someone closer to the canoe buying it out from under one of us, has a small ring of truth in it. I myself have disappoint other fine member like Michael Grace, Dan Miller, Peter Mueller and others by getting to a canoe faster or outbidding them for a canoe, but I have never misrepresented anything nor bought one out from under someone who brought my attention to a canoe.

We need to trust each other a little bit and also those people we may commonly do business with.

Paul

Tough one to call. Out in the North West if the price is fair you have to act fast. What if you are inspecting a canoe for someone and there is another potential buyer dealing on it at the same time. Do you buy it on spec. and then give your party first right of refusal? How do they know you are acting in their best interest? Could get messy. That said, I too am willing to check out a canoe for anyone in this area. Yesterday I had a friend who is 500 miles away inspect/purchase a canoe in his town for me. Ya take yer chances , make sure the odds are in your favor and don't spend any more than you can afford to lose.

Paul Miller said:

Why do we have this fear of outing these people? You can not be sued for slander or held liable if your statements are true. Plus those mentioned have an open forum to rebut anyone's statement.

Paul

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Because we are basically decent people, and it offends us to speak ill of others. It's something we learn very early, and it is very hard to go against that, even in the face of evidence that we should. I, for one, am glad of that. If when I get to the final carry all that can be said of me is that I gave someone too many chances to do better, I'll count myself a lucky man.

I haven't "outed" the seller because I don't really think these forums are the place for the airing of dirty laundry. I made my post in the hopes that others might learn from my mistakes.

I had no warning on this canoe. If I had, I would not have purchased it, at least not at the price I did get it for. I'll not be so trusting in the future, that much is for sure!

Mark