Need help identifying a wood and canvas canoe serial#1895 17.

[Rob Anderson]

I recently purchased a 17 foot wood and canvas canoe that had been partially restored. It measures 30 1/2 at the center by 11 1/4 deep. It does not have the original seat or thwart bolts and is missing the outer gunwales and keel. The decks may have been replaced as they dont match any forum pics. The ends of the canoe are upturned. The serial #s are on both stems which are not splayed or flaired. The previous owner had been told it was from 1905 but could not remember the make or model. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Pictures would help. There isn't an Old Town record for a canoe with your serial number. If you post pictures, many eyes and brains can give you their thoughts regarding what you have, and what may have been done to it over the years.

Old Town canoe 2087 dates from 1906, so your canoe's serial number appears to work for a 1905 Old Town--- but several of the old canoe companies had four-digit serial numbers.

Kathy

 

[Rob Anderson]

Need help identifying a wood and canvas canoe serial # 1895 17

Thanks Kathy- will try to post pics later this week. I just saw a thread on the OT xx and it looks very similar to what I have though mine has a shorter more intricate deck.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

If you have trouble posting pictures, check the "FAQ" section here in forums. I know many of us are eager to see your canoe.

Kathy

 

[Valiant J]

Seems like canoes are always assumed to be Old Town. I'll bet this one turns out to be from the Boston area.m from along the Charles River.

 

[Rob Anderson]

Need help identifying a wood and canvas canoe serial# 1895 17.

Valiant thanks for the input. You are correct as new light shed by a person who has seen the boat says that it is a Robertson canoe. Although it looks very similar in its present state to an OT Charles River or an xx the deck is definately a Robertson short deck. I thought the seats and thwarts were replacements as they appear much heavier than those on the OTs but fit the pictures I have seen of the Robertson. As I understand Robertson and OT combined in 1902 and became the Robertson & Old Town Co. Still believe the serial # 1985 is an OT number as this puts it in line with the reported 1905 build date. Unfortunately OT has confirmed only a few serial #s in the 1600s exist and then the records jump to the 2000s but would place my # as 1905 as did Kathy. Very interested to see the relationship of the 1905 Robertson and OTs Charles River. I see Vintage Canoe Works is working on a Robertson of similar vintage perhaps they will be able to shed light on this. Hope to have pictures in the near future.

 

[Rob Anderson]

Finally some pictures.

 

[Fitz]

Thwart Stamps

If you look closely at the tops of the ends of the thwarts you may see a Robertson stamp. After not doing much with Old Town, he had his own factory in Auburndale, MA. I suspect you have no. 1985 built there. Unfortunately, no serial number records have been found to exist for Robertson.

 

[MGC]

Rob,

Go with Fitz on this. He's spot on with his comments.
I had a Robertson for a while that is a dead ringer for the one that you have.
They are nice canoes, neatly built, decent lines.
Yours does not look like it needs too much work so it should be pretty easy for you to restore.
It's not quite as exotic as having an OT from 05, but still a good find.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Rob,

Old Town's very early records do not exist, but their catalogs do... and the canoes coming out of the Old Town factory in 1905 (and earlier) didn't have the deck-style seen on your canoe--- that's a typical Robertson deck.

I've attached a page from the 1905 catalog, showing the typical Old Town short deck. Image courtesy "The Complete Old Town Canoe Company Catalog Collection, 1901- 1993", available on CD from http://www.wcha.org/catalog/ and http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/cdrom.htm on the web.


Kathy

 

[Rob Anderson]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I am hoping someone knows what type of gunwale this type of boat should have. The pictures I have seen show a closed one but not sure how this could be acomplished without raising the decks. Also hoping to find dimensions for the keel and type of screws (Robertson?) used to attach it. The thwarts do not show the Robertson stamp and I am questoning whether they are original. They are very flat on the edges and pictures I have seen appear to show they should be rounded over. They are mohagony. Another mystery is how the seats were attached as the seats have no screw or bolt holes. Any thoughts are much appreciated. I am sure more questions will follow. Thanks- Rob

 

[JClearwater]

It would appear that the jury is in and your canoe has been identified as a Robertson. The deck certainly is a Robertson deck. Robertson thwarts are distinctive, flat on the bottom with the top rounded over creating a rather sharp edge where the curve meets the bottom flat. Your seat frames are either replacements ready to install minus the mounting holes or they are the originals rudely cut out of the boat because the bolts could not be easily removed. You will have to make your own determination on what to do with them.

Harold E. Crandell was the son-in-law of John R. Robertson and built canoes similar to those built by Robertson. Crandell's decks are the same as Robertson's decks. Crandell ran a canoe livery on Lake Quinsigamond in Worcester, Mass. Do a search of the forums and you will find several threads talking about Crandell canoes, with pictures. The April 2007 Wooden Canoe has a fine article about Crandell written by Bill Conrad. Your seats are styled like Crandell seats being simple square stock with little rounding of the edges but there are too many holes to be Crandell seats.

Closed gunwale canoes have top caps and side caps running along the gunwales which cover the top edge of the canvas and the top of the inwales and rib tops. The top surface of the deck is lower than the top cap - not flush as with an open gunwale canoe.

Attached are two pictures. The second is a close up of a Crandell owned by Robert Ross. The first is my Crandell. Both pictures show the gunwale caps & side caps. The seats are installed before the caps are put on which cover the mounting bolts.

Good luck with your project.

Jim C.

 

[Rob Anderson]

Jim, I took your advice and searched the Crandell archives. Your Crandell restoration is amazing and the search answered many of my questions. During my archive search I came across a 2009 post from lepton searching for the build record for my boat (what are the chances?). Obviously one of the previous owners, he said it had what he called the Robertson "badge". This removes all doubt as to its maker. The post raised the open or closed gunwale question again as Dan Miller felt it was a later model Robertson with open gunwales. Still not sure after seeing so many closed on the Robertsons. Still looking for keel dimensions and wondering if it had an outer stem. Thanks for all your information.- Rob

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Rob,

Here's a previous discussion of outside stems with some pictures... in general, the rails are longer if there are outside stems, so that may be something to check on your canoe.

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5052&highlight=oss

 

[nickb]

That's a cool caning pattern!