Need advice for giving a Rushton IG back it's girlish lines

[Howie]

I have a problem with old splayed-out ribs distorting this canoe's shape. I'll get to the problem at the bottom of this Thread... but first some history:

Several weeks ago I was gifted a Rushton Indian Girl from my buddy Mike aka WCHA member MGC. The poor girl had sat unrestored since the early 70's but was in reasonable shape.

In particular note the break in the starboard inner rail by the rear thwart. I had thought this was caused by the thwarts being too short but later discovered they were original. I figure the 'kink' in this rail, and possibly the break itself, was caused by the ribs wanting to splay open. Anyway, after removing the outer rails I found that virtually all the rib tips were crumbling and that the inner rails were barely held in place. (Luckily this canoe has 'long decks', so there's a short thwart-like chunk of wood about 2 feet ahead of the decks that helped the rails retain their shape.) So I removed the inner rails and repaired them apart from the canoe itself.

Meanwhile I replaced 7 ribs and spliced in new ribs tips to virtually all the old ribs (while taking care to mark with pencil where the top of the inner rail should lie).

I think I reinstalled the repaired inner rails right: I clamped some rib blanks on both sides of the canoe just below the rib tips to act as battens to force the ribs to all bend together against the rails before I nailed them in place. This allowed me to tweak the inner rails's position so they were centered to the canoe and at the proper height.

And indeed, after I nailed in all the ribs everything looked just fine. For the first day. Then the ribs started to splay out again and the old inner rails weren't strong enough to prevent it. Here (pic below) is the canoe's profile when both thwarts are attached. Notice how 'pinched in' the inner rails are by the thwarts. The canoe's profile is really bad and irregular.

Here's the profile if I use a strap at the center of the canoe to simulate what the profile would look like if I added a center thwart. The strap is pulling the canter together by 1-1/2" to 2". This greatly improves the look, and I'm guessing this is how the canoe it is supposed to look.

And here's the profile if I detach the two thwarts and allow these areas to move out by an inch or more. Looks good to me...


So what do I do? Doing nothing isn't an option - the canoe looks awful with the original thwarts. Since the thwarts are original (well... I did remake the front thwart but it's to the same dimensions as the original), the ribs 'splayed out' over the past 50 years and don't want to go back to the shape they are supposed to have. I had hoped that the inner rails would be strong enough to force them back to their original shape - but nope. And no way am I going to remove the original inner rails and remake them with (stronger) ash.

So what to do to get the shape to look good?

1. Could steam help? I suppose I could use battens and straps to pull the sides to the shape I like, and then hit the inside of the canoe with steam and hope that the ribs take to their new shape when I remove the strap several days later. I figure I'd need to steam in small sections for maybe 15 minutes or more before moving to a different section. In addition I could pour boiling water from a tea kettle over the ribs. Don't know if that'd work though.

2. I could add a center thwart. But a 16ft IG never had a center thwart so that's not a good idea.

3. Or I could simply add some material to the ends of the existing thwarts and use the canoe in its more 'relaxed' mode.

Anybody have some thoughts?

 

[samb]

You've probably thought through these but . . .

- are you replacing Outwales? - New timber there might help
- could you switch the existing outwales sides - the deformation front to back is different each side
- do the seats fit right under the inwales, which would give the equivalent of extra thwarts to keep thing in place

Sam

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Howie,

Great that you're taking on such a heroic project, and based on your work and others like Chris Pearson, you know that even a basket case can turn out great with perseverance. Your wiggly profile at the rails is a product of the canoe being out of shape for so long, and it's a product of both the ribs and the rails changing shape. The only way to really get it back right is at the rails. The old inwales have changed shape and so I don't think there's any way those same inwales are ever going to help - they can't because they are out of shape. Adding a center thwart will help but it won't be perfect, plus you don't want to make that kind of change. Adding length to the thwarts only allows the entire hull to relax more, so eventually you'll probably have the same problem as now, just with an even more splayed-out hull. Wide outwales could help if you're willing to make that kind of change. Outwales like those on the later Old Town Molitor would add a lot of strength but they wouldn't be like original.

The best way to get the shape back and keep originality is going to be new inwales and outwales - a lot of work but you've put a lot of work into some of your other restorations and it has paid off well. You're putting so much time and effort into this one, so it might not be that much additional work to replace the rails.

Michael

 

[Howie]

Michael... I'm not sure the rails have taken a set. But no doubt there wouldn't be a problem if the rail wood were stronger. That causes me to wonder if maybe I could glue in a length of ash under the rails in tge pinched in areas. Easy enough to try... I could just clamp a short batten on the outside in these areas. I'll try it and see what happens after a few days.

 

[MGC]

I think Sam may be onto something. The IG's come with substantial oak outside rails that (from my experience) hold their shape really well. I think the ones from that canoe are pretty good. Keeping in mind how they are attached (many screws through the inside rail to the outside rail) they probably will help to re-stablish the shape somewhat. It may be worth your time to fit them now, with the original thwarts and see where you end up.
I think Michael has probably got it right. So many years without being properly stabilized can change the hull.

 

[dtdcanoes]

Howie, very fine of you to share this experience...a veritable definition of what " a passion for the canoe " means. So, my two cents for just one off your issues, the wavy wale.
I have had in a Williams I restored, inwales that were greatly compromised at every seat and thwart bolt point from salt, rusted out bolts and punky wood for many inches beyond each hole location. And nearly every rib tip was rotted or severely fractured at the nailing points. I saved the wales as you might do by using inserts at every location 14 in all and some up to 16 inches long. A saber saw cut allowed for an 1/8 " left as an original surface that encapsulated the insert ( canoe shaped ) and epoxied in and clamped to a form long enough to reproduce the proper rail shape and redrilled for the bolts. And yes, the ash insert was preformed for the proper curve before insertion and wide enough at the hole points to offer structural support, especially with the laminating feature provided by the remaining inner and outer surfaces of the wale after assembly. This insert process can be modified in many ways to use even a very long and thin biscuit of ash cut all the way through the wale for a closed wale or not , for an open gunnel with the top surface preserved.
If you come by I could pull up many pics for you to see the process.
It will be a great boat that may well indicate you are going to peak too early as they say. HAVE FUN
Dave

 

[Howie]

Sam, Mike:
I'm not going to change the inner rails again. Been there - done that. And good thought about swapping the rails front to back, but the IG is quite symmetric: the thwart holes are in the same spots so I don't think that'd have solved anything.

I've been thinking about gluing about a 1 foot long reinforcing chunk of ash under the rails centered on the thwart bolt holes: I could taper their shape width-wise so the outer edges that'd be flush against the outside of the rails are thicker than the inner and thus be virtually invisible. And I could taper the ends of the thwarts to they'd appear to be mounted level against the bottom of the rails. Of course we're only talking 1-1/2" wide...

O - and the outer rails are in great shape. But the side facing the canoe is flat, ie not rabbited. This means they don't resist bending as well as rabbited outer rails. But you're right, they will lend some strength.

 

[Dave Osborn]

I suppose you could goof around with ash under the inwales to see if it helps.
I restored a canoe with a similar issue. I replaced the wacky inwales and it all came back together just fine.
I have also added an inch or so to thwarts to bring the symmetry back, but I don’t think that will work here.
In situations like this, I ask myself “what is the right thing to do”. If it were mine, I’d replace ‘em. Outwales, too! The strength in new wood will be your success.

 

[MGC]

If it were mine, I’d replace ‘em. Outwales, too! The strength in new wood will be your success.

Oh the horror....original oak Rushton IG outside rails in good shape. The outside rails on these really stand out.
I had figured Howie would end up replacing the inside rails and keeping the outside ones. Time will tell. Stay tuned!

 

[JClearwater]

Howie,
The Rushton that I restored was also badly out of shape. After I replaced the inwales the curve came back the way it was supposed to be. Watch the video that my daughter and I put together for the Assembly which is now available on YouTube. I could have made it longer and more detailed especially regarding the inwales but 45 minutes was the max time limit allowed. Despite the amount of time and effort required to make the new inwales it was the correct thing to do. I think the old girl is trying to tell you that. Sorry, maybe not what you want to hear.
Jim

 

[Howie]

Well, if the true fix is to replace the inwales then I might as well explore adding ash under the existing inwales to stiffen them up. What have I got to loose! Ditto strapping the rails closer together and steaming the ribs.

 

[MGC]

Howie, it looks like the site has been restored from a backup that lost several of the posts on this topic. I see the same thing also happened with the 15 foot "Ruston" Wells post.
Anyway, the answers to a few of the questions you asked:
The thwarts on 16 foot IG's are always identical. There is not a short one and a long one. Except for the markings, they are interchangeable. Take note that the ends are not cut square. They taper to match the shape of the hull. Width wise they are about flush with the outside of the inside rail. On my IG 5452 (yours is 5 one something so built almost at the same time) both thwarts are 26 inches long. Note, my Brown is built exactly the same way....except the thwarts are 27 inches (on a 15 foot hull).
Thwarts are located as follows: Bow thwart front edge sits nearly aligned with the back edge of rib number 15, in front of 16 counting from the bow, not centered between them....positioned (as noted) more towards the front. It's worth noting, my IG has all of it's original bits. These are the original rails, thwarts, I have the original seats. The locations for all of these parts are as they were from the Canton.
Stern thwart sits centered between ribs 16 and 17, counting from the stern.
The hull is about 30 inches measured on the outsides of the inside rail.
The bolts holding the thwarts and stern seat are slotted brass flat heads that are countersunk flush in the inside rail.
WRT seats, I have original seats that I can provide measurements from. I think you may remember commenting on how simple they are. They do not have all of the coving that is the norm on OT's and other canoes. Just a simple break to remove the sharpness of the corners is the correct way to build these. The bow seat sits centered on it's pine cleats. The rear sit is pulled up tight to the rails. It should not have spacers. I can give you the exact hole locations for the stern seat when you need them.

Without your post to refer to, I'm not sure I answered all of the questions?

 

[Howie]

Great info - thanks Mike.
So... your thwarts are not positioned symmetrically to the boat's center. Mine are both located between ribs 15 & 16 as is your bow thwart, but your stern thwart is located between 16 & 17. I hadn't thought of that: I could effectively lengthen my 'pinched in' thwart by moving it one rib further from center.
I'm glad the seat/thwart bolts are not #12s: smaller holes in the rails.
Seats are likely a winter project. I'll get back to you...
And I'll let you know how I make out steaming the ribs in situ.

 

[Howie]

Looks one of my ideas paid off. I removed the thwarts, then added a strap at the center and a foot to the left & right of where the thwarts were supposed to be, then tightened up the straps so the inner rails were 1" to 2" closer then they had been. Then I laid the canoe on its side & used my wallpaper steamer to steam the ribs three at a time while using a towel to retain the heat and moisture. I then regularly moved the steam nozzle to steam new ribs over the course of 8 hours. Then the next day I repeated the process on the other side.

And it looks like it worked. The sides now barely move when I screw in the thwarts, and with the thwarts in place the outer edge of the inner rails are now 29-3/4" apart (Mike's are 30" apart). Let's see if it stays like this.

No ribs were broken - although one rib did split lengthwise for a few inches where the ends of two planking pieces were tacked.

I do see a kinked area by one of the thwarts, but this is caused by a rail splice job I did at the start of restoration. I'll likely re-do this splice.

 

[Howie]

Getting there... The steaming technique I mentioned above sure seems to have solved the problem of the ribs wanting to splay out. It's been over 2 weeks and I have to flex the sides less than 1/2" to install the thwarts.