Morris with two cant ribs
- Thread starter skifree
- Start date
Paul Miller
Canoe Nut
You most likely have a Veazie canoe which was B.N. Morris's direct from the factory canoe.
Kathy Klos has posted information about the approximate build dates of those canoes, but search Veazie
Canoe.
The two cant ribs give it away.
Good luck,
Paul
Kathy Klos has posted information about the approximate build dates of those canoes, but search Veazie
Canoe.
The two cant ribs give it away.
Good luck,
Paul
Are you sure? Kathy's article in Wooden Canoe states:
"Somewhere between Morris 2972 (1904?) and Morris 3889 (1905), the canoes changed. Without any discernible difference in their profiles, Morris began manufacturing canoes with three pairs of cant ribs rather than two." (Wooden Canoe issue 148)
and in issue 156 she suggests that Morris started Veazie Canoe Company around 1905.
I don't think the number of cant ribs is diagnostic of a Veazie canoe...
Dan
Paul Miller
Canoe Nut
My non-marked Morris with the "Keyhole" deck has two cant ribs and I had pointed that out to Kathy before the history of the Veazie vs. Morris canoe unfolded.
Denis Kallery found a Veazie catalog at the Maine Historical Society at Portland and all the canoes pictured in that catalog had "Keyhole" decks. Kathy wrote another article in issue 144 about the Veazie canoe and did mention a few with a curved deck like the one on the Morris Tuscarora.
The catalog shows only one "Model "A"" canoe and does not mention names.
Most of the "Veazie" canoes had Ash or Maple decks, seat and thwarts; mine has Maple.
Skifree; what do your decks look like?
I have attached a picture of my "Veazie", I don't believe the straight carrying thwart is original.
Kathy would need to speak up and let us know if there are any know Morris canoes with two cant ribs, I can't recall what she found.
Paul
Denis Kallery found a Veazie catalog at the Maine Historical Society at Portland and all the canoes pictured in that catalog had "Keyhole" decks. Kathy wrote another article in issue 144 about the Veazie canoe and did mention a few with a curved deck like the one on the Morris Tuscarora.
The catalog shows only one "Model "A"" canoe and does not mention names.
Most of the "Veazie" canoes had Ash or Maple decks, seat and thwarts; mine has Maple.
Skifree; what do your decks look like?
I have attached a picture of my "Veazie", I don't believe the straight carrying thwart is original.
Kathy would need to speak up and let us know if there are any know Morris canoes with two cant ribs, I can't recall what she found.
Paul
Attachments
MGC
Scrapmaker
Kathy's "database" has a SN 2972with two 2 cant ribs that someone has concluded is a 1905 construction. It is logged as a Morris.
I don't think two cant ribs a Veazie makes.
Nor am I convinced that we can conclude that 1905 was a solid transition date for the cant ribs.
Most of this is speculation that is guided by interpretation of the few solid facts that are available about these companies.
I don't think two cant ribs a Veazie makes.
Nor am I convinced that we can conclude that 1905 was a solid transition date for the cant ribs.
Most of this is speculation that is guided by interpretation of the few solid facts that are available about these companies.
Paul Miller
Canoe Nut
Too bad Bert's not here to let us know.
MGC
Scrapmaker
Or at least left some records......
I currently have a client's 16' Morris in the shop. It is S/N 2766 with 3 cant ribs and heart shaped deck that Kathy dated 1904-05 in forum correspondence with the original owner. Bert was obviously making 3 cant rib Morrises before the 2900 S/N series started . See thread titled "Trying to date and value a B.N. Morris canvas canoe".
This Morris was never touched, entirely original and the most pristine Morris I have ever seen. Once the original canvas was removed, the planking looked almost new. The interior varnish (a bright interior, no stain) was in such good condition I almost did not want to strip it, just scuff up & revarnish but I did not want to risk any varnish color disparity areas. This Morris is a prime example of the desirability and necessity for regimented interior storage of wood & canvas canoes. If stored properly, they remain in excellent condition for hundred plus years!!! The current owner really scored big with the purchase of this one!!!
Ed
This Morris was never touched, entirely original and the most pristine Morris I have ever seen. Once the original canvas was removed, the planking looked almost new. The interior varnish (a bright interior, no stain) was in such good condition I almost did not want to strip it, just scuff up & revarnish but I did not want to risk any varnish color disparity areas. This Morris is a prime example of the desirability and necessity for regimented interior storage of wood & canvas canoes. If stored properly, they remain in excellent condition for hundred plus years!!! The current owner really scored big with the purchase of this one!!!
Ed
MGC
Scrapmaker
Exactly. That canoe has 3 cants the SN on the inside rail.
If you look at the classifieds SN 1256 (1902ish) has the tag on the stem.....not on the rail as per the noted 2766.
Point being that all of the little queues we try to use are inconsistently implemented making the "science) of dating these or drawing any conclusions an iffy proposition.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Sorry it has taken me so long to jump in here. My brain has been in a fuzz and my back "went out" (but not for a night on the town) a while back, with what has been going on with Denis... and I haven't checked the board here with consistency.
Basically (and others have said this) all Morris canoes had two pairs of cant ribs until what seems to be about 1905. The two cant-rib-thing helps to provide a date for the canoe, but isn't diagnostic of a Veazie Canoe Company canoe.
What is diagnostic of a Veazie canoe are the presence of the "keyhole" deck-- but only early-on in production, as this deck was replaced with the simple curved deck Morris used on the BN Morris toward the latter years of production (beginning in the early teens)-- this is the deck seen on the Ticonderoga. We see it on the Ticonderoga because that model was born late in the Morris-canoe-game, when that deck had replaced the heart. An "aside" here is that the curved deck is NOT diagnostic of a Ticonderoga-- folks get this mixed up. Wood species for trim is diagnostic of the Ticonderoga (I believe it was spruce-trimmed, not mahogany).
Wood species of the trim can be diagnostic of a Veazie canoe--- "can" being the operative word here, because a person could order a Veazie in mahogany. So, a buyer could order a Veazie in mahogany, pick it up at the factory, scrape off the decal, and you'd have a Morris. No way to tell the difference... except by the serial number.
If you have a low serial number Morris on a rectangular tag on the stem, you have a Veazie Canoe Company canoe. In the database, 6586 is the highest serial number on an oval plate. 6787 is the lowest number on a rectangular plate. So, if a canoe has (for instance) s/n 2345 on a rectangular plate on the stem, even if the canoe is all tricked-out with long mahogany decks, it's a Veazie... Morris used a separate numbering system, unlike Old Town. 1050 is the highest serial number on a Veazie in the database.
I hope this is clearer than mud... my brain is a bit muddied. I know it can be "off-putting" to speak like the final authority on something, and I don't mean to be that way. I've wrapped and un-wrapped my head around this stuff for a few years, and what I've said makes sense to me, based on the canoes in the database.
I've been wanting to comment on the unusual Morris at the Adirondack Museum... s/n 73.60. It has two cants... and it has a s/n with a decimal point-- it isn't 7360, it is 73 point 60... I think because everything about it is different from any other Morris. We'd have to ask Bert (or Charlie) about that too.
Denis is currently "between worlds". I hope there are canoes where he is...
Kathy
Basically (and others have said this) all Morris canoes had two pairs of cant ribs until what seems to be about 1905. The two cant-rib-thing helps to provide a date for the canoe, but isn't diagnostic of a Veazie Canoe Company canoe.
What is diagnostic of a Veazie canoe are the presence of the "keyhole" deck-- but only early-on in production, as this deck was replaced with the simple curved deck Morris used on the BN Morris toward the latter years of production (beginning in the early teens)-- this is the deck seen on the Ticonderoga. We see it on the Ticonderoga because that model was born late in the Morris-canoe-game, when that deck had replaced the heart. An "aside" here is that the curved deck is NOT diagnostic of a Ticonderoga-- folks get this mixed up. Wood species for trim is diagnostic of the Ticonderoga (I believe it was spruce-trimmed, not mahogany).
Wood species of the trim can be diagnostic of a Veazie canoe--- "can" being the operative word here, because a person could order a Veazie in mahogany. So, a buyer could order a Veazie in mahogany, pick it up at the factory, scrape off the decal, and you'd have a Morris. No way to tell the difference... except by the serial number.
If you have a low serial number Morris on a rectangular tag on the stem, you have a Veazie Canoe Company canoe. In the database, 6586 is the highest serial number on an oval plate. 6787 is the lowest number on a rectangular plate. So, if a canoe has (for instance) s/n 2345 on a rectangular plate on the stem, even if the canoe is all tricked-out with long mahogany decks, it's a Veazie... Morris used a separate numbering system, unlike Old Town. 1050 is the highest serial number on a Veazie in the database.
I hope this is clearer than mud... my brain is a bit muddied. I know it can be "off-putting" to speak like the final authority on something, and I don't mean to be that way. I've wrapped and un-wrapped my head around this stuff for a few years, and what I've said makes sense to me, based on the canoes in the database.
I've been wanting to comment on the unusual Morris at the Adirondack Museum... s/n 73.60. It has two cants... and it has a s/n with a decimal point-- it isn't 7360, it is 73 point 60... I think because everything about it is different from any other Morris. We'd have to ask Bert (or Charlie) about that too.
Denis is currently "between worlds". I hope there are canoes where he is...
Kathy
