Know where I can get some cup (aka keel) washers?

[Howie]

Anyone know where I can get some #8 cup washers? You know - the type used by most all canoe builders before 1960 to help hold the keels in place. I don't mean 'finish washers' - the type here both the screw and the washer are above the wood. I mean the old ones where the tops of the washer and the screw head are flush with the wood. They were made of brass or copper. I tried to order some from Northwoods but had to return them - they were the new type finish washers & apparently Rollin didn't have the old type. I did pick up a pack of 20 for $5 at the WCHA 2012 event at Paul Smiths this year. Wish I had bought more! They were from the vender just to the left of the Northwoods counter under the same tent. Does anybody remember the vender's name?

 

[Gary Willoughby]

Top Notch Fasteners sells them

 

[Dan Miller]

That would have been Jerry Stelmok (Island Falls) - I picked up a couple packs from him while there.

Here is the link to the source Gary mentioned: http://www.tnfasteners.com/cgi-loca...=215&cart_id=6cca6724a21859fa9ac94d391fdf7ef8

 

[Howie]

Yes! Thank you very much!

 

[yankee2]

Judging from your Top Notch Fasteners link, I believe the type of finish washer you want is called a FLUSH washer (Top Notch Fasteners uses that term as well). They are available from Amazon.com in nickel plated brass, in a variety of sizes. The width of the flange varies with the specific item, but the ones on my Chestnuts (which are a close match for the Amazon washers) have a somewhat wider flange than those show in your link/image.

 

[Howie]

I think you're right - when I googled 'flush washer' I found an image that's exactly what I want. But I can't find any that are out of silicon-bronze. But the above link at Island Falls Canoe has the same silicon-bronze keel washers used on my Old Towns and Penn Yans. That's where I've been buying mine.

Incidentally, I've found 'finish washers' at JamesTown that are made from silicon-bronze. They cause the screws to sit a tad too high, but I found a way to sand them down so that they'll closely match what was used on my Penn Yans.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4892

 

[yankee2]

Glad to be of service. I recently purchased a couple of Chestnuts (a Fox/Playmate and a Chum) in need of restoration, and was facing the same problem myself. Note that they are a completely different kind of finish washer than the ones in your link, which appear to me to be standard finish washers, albeit in bronze. The flush washers are just like a flat washer that has been pushed downward in the center, so that the top of a flat head screw lies flush with the top of the washer. I'm not clear at the moment (just got my canoes) whether the washer itself is set into the rib, or if it lies on top of it. Your silicon bronze finish washer definitely sits proud. I'm not familiar with the Penn Yans (or even the OTs; I'm rather new to this), but the ones being sold on Amazon appear to be about right for Chestnuts. I'll order some and look at them side by side, and let y'all know how they compare. They must certainly be closer (for Chestnuts at least) than standard finish washers. Getting the right BRONZE hardware is a challenge, isn't it? I bet the ones you found will come in handy in many cases. One last thing, the flush washers I found on Amazon are nickel plated brass. It might not be too difficult to electrolytically remove the nickel, giving you something closer to what you want.

 

[Howie]

I have used the brass finish washers in the past. Don't like 'em - too flimsy. The silicon-bronze ones from JamesTown are quite substantial - they'll last. They do stand tall as you say, but this can be improved. Here's what I did:
I used a sanding disk on my table saw - just a blade without teeth that has a hunk of 'sand paper' sticky-taped to the side - to take off much of the washer's height. To hold the washer while sanding I attached the washer to a hunk of wood using a flat-head screw fed through the washer from the back. The screw's head should be seized so that its head lies about flush with the 'pucker' in the inside of the washer. Then just hold the washer/wood block against the spinning disk until you start to get sparks - the sparks indicate that you've cut down to the screw head.

Then to further reduce the height I used a vice to compress the washer a bit more. I used a large fender washer to evenly distribute the force.

The results look quite good - not quite as good as the original 'flush washer', but not bad! In these last 2 pics the 2 on the left are the original washers - the 2 on the right are mine. Mine are a bit larger diameter - which is good - and the screw sits at about the same height.


The things we do when we have too much time on our hands.

 

[yankee2]

You must be an engineer (actually, I checked, and know that you are)! I can't really judge how well your adaptation compares to the originals, without really knowing what your originals look like, but I can see that they wind up looking more like flush washers, and your method of getting there is ingenious. I see that by mounting the washer on a squared block of wood, the washer will contact the sanding disk perfectly square. I was wondering how you removed material evenly, and now I see. But, does that small block register against the TS insert? If it was bigger, it would register against the bed, which might be more precise, and you could also use the miter gauge to keep it square in the other direction.

I see you own a couple of OT 50-pounders. I want one of those! I DO see one FS for $650, which is said to leak but otherwise looks good. HOWEVER, I do think I've got my hands full with the Chestnuts, for the moment. Having bought fixer-uppers, instead of restored boats, as I had intended (I had only meant to buy one), I still have enough left in my canoe fund to restore them (i.e. if I do the work myself). Since I recently moved from CA to MA, am currently looking for a house (with shop space), and my shop is in storage, I have to wait. I can't gather 6-8 canoes (I already have 4), all needing work, until I have a house and my shop is set up!

Very nice chatting, Howie. I'll have to take a more critical look at an OT, to see what those washers actually look like. I'll let you (and all) know how the Amazon washers compare with the originals used on Chestnuts, as soon as I have some in hand.