ID bolts
- Thread starter Treewater
- Start date
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
I don't have an answer but would like to see more pictures of this canoe... interesting!
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Hi Tim-
Is that a splayed stem at the bow end? If so, you may have a Morris that's been modified... I can't zoom in enough to see the stem well.
Kathy
Is that a splayed stem at the bow end? If so, you may have a Morris that's been modified... I can't zoom in enough to see the stem well.
Kathy
OP
OP
Treewater
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
sort of Morris
Hi Kathryn
As chance would have it I do have a Morris to compare. The ribs seem the same, spacing is 1 3/4 on UFO but 2" on Morris. Seats are identicle but for small differences where the router tool was used to round them. Thwarts are the same but UFO about 1/32" thinner. This canoe has been modified for sure. Visible wales are spruce but the top is obviously new. I'm somewhat certain that square stem is a modification although a good one. I answered my question on the bolts. They are an insert. See first picture, green headed insert. There is no deck but there may have been one once. The curve of the bow is close to a Morris but more back at the top. Again, could have been modified. That wood in the bow is also add on but I can't get at it . Seems close enough to a Morris to raise the question of similiarity.
Thanks, Tim
Hi Kathryn
As chance would have it I do have a Morris to compare. The ribs seem the same, spacing is 1 3/4 on UFO but 2" on Morris. Seats are identicle but for small differences where the router tool was used to round them. Thwarts are the same but UFO about 1/32" thinner. This canoe has been modified for sure. Visible wales are spruce but the top is obviously new. I'm somewhat certain that square stem is a modification although a good one. I answered my question on the bolts. They are an insert. See first picture, green headed insert. There is no deck but there may have been one once. The curve of the bow is close to a Morris but more back at the top. Again, could have been modified. That wood in the bow is also add on but I can't get at it . Seems close enough to a Morris to raise the question of similiarity.
Thanks, Tim
Attachments
Tim,
Though I don't think this is a Morris I'm curious if the ribs are pocketed or not?
Denis
Though I don't think this is a Morris I'm curious if the ribs are pocketed or not?
Denis
OP
OP
Treewater
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
pocketed?
The ribs are notched into the inner wale if that is the term. Wales are cedar or spruce. Definitely not mahogany though the seat and thwarts are mahogany. I don't think it is a Morris either but certainly is close and certainly the seat and thwarts could have come from one. I see slicing for repair on the inner gunwale. Much as I don't like fiberglass, someone did a very good job rebuilding and fiberglassing this canoe.
Tim
The ribs are notched into the inner wale if that is the term. Wales are cedar or spruce. Definitely not mahogany though the seat and thwarts are mahogany. I don't think it is a Morris either but certainly is close and certainly the seat and thwarts could have come from one. I see slicing for repair on the inner gunwale. Much as I don't like fiberglass, someone did a very good job rebuilding and fiberglassing this canoe.
Tim
Tim,
Can you tell if the "notch is a semicircle of squared off? Morris inwales are - to the best of my knowledge spruce. [Rollin can jump in here if I'm wrong] I'm starting to go back to Kathy's suggestion that it is a modified Morris. Perhaps the person who glassed it replaced the stem and put it back sorta like it was, and didn't replace the deck.
Just my two cents.
Denis
Can you tell if the "notch is a semicircle of squared off? Morris inwales are - to the best of my knowledge spruce. [Rollin can jump in here if I'm wrong] I'm starting to go back to Kathy's suggestion that it is a modified Morris. Perhaps the person who glassed it replaced the stem and put it back sorta like it was, and didn't replace the deck.
Just my two cents.
Denis
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Hi Tim,
The stem on a Morris touches (or seems to "bite into") the first fill rib. Inwales are spruce even if the boat has the fancier D-shaped mahogany outwales--- standard gunwales on a Morris are spruce, and the decks/thwarts/seat frames are mahogany. If your canoe isn't a reconstructed Morris, it may be someone's attempt to copy some Morris details.
These things can be hard to determine from pictures, so you may want to take this canoe to the Assembly in July...
Kathy
The stem on a Morris touches (or seems to "bite into") the first fill rib. Inwales are spruce even if the boat has the fancier D-shaped mahogany outwales--- standard gunwales on a Morris are spruce, and the decks/thwarts/seat frames are mahogany. If your canoe isn't a reconstructed Morris, it may be someone's attempt to copy some Morris details.
These things can be hard to determine from pictures, so you may want to take this canoe to the Assembly in July...
Kathy
OP
OP
Treewater
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
modified Morris?
Hello Denis, Kathryn, The inwale has circular "pockets". Not semi cirlce exactly but more like 1/3rd of a circle. I see where the stem has been re-worked a little at the top where it curves back slightly more than a Morris.
I could be swayed either way. For sure, a lot of good work went in to re-furbish an old canoe and make it "modern." In the 50's and 60's a lot of great Victorian Detail in houses got "modernized" with awful results, fake parquet over rock maple floors, oak trim painted teal, etc. This canoe has the same look. The seats, just the forward is left, and thwarts, are so close to Morris as to be indistinguishable. Rather than re-cane the seat, (the "old look,") a table saw was used to router a double saw curf on the underside and put classic "modern" 1960 plastic green lawn chair strips fastened in with wood battens and copper tacks (copper tacks bend in mahogany). A very neat job and it lasted until today but historically atrocious.
I guess I will consider bringing it to the assembly. I can strip the fiberglass while I am there. Thanks,
Tim
Hello Denis, Kathryn, The inwale has circular "pockets". Not semi cirlce exactly but more like 1/3rd of a circle. I see where the stem has been re-worked a little at the top where it curves back slightly more than a Morris.
I could be swayed either way. For sure, a lot of good work went in to re-furbish an old canoe and make it "modern." In the 50's and 60's a lot of great Victorian Detail in houses got "modernized" with awful results, fake parquet over rock maple floors, oak trim painted teal, etc. This canoe has the same look. The seats, just the forward is left, and thwarts, are so close to Morris as to be indistinguishable. Rather than re-cane the seat, (the "old look,") a table saw was used to router a double saw curf on the underside and put classic "modern" 1960 plastic green lawn chair strips fastened in with wood battens and copper tacks (copper tacks bend in mahogany). A very neat job and it lasted until today but historically atrocious.
I guess I will consider bringing it to the assembly. I can strip the fiberglass while I am there. Thanks,
Tim
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
Tim --
You might want to take a look at the thread found at
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=1587
where Morris rib pockets and inwales are discussed, with some measurements.
Since that thread, I've learned how to post photos, so here are some of fragments of the original inwales that survive for my Morris 6466, which show the shape of the pockets and how they fit over the ribs. The pockets are not full half-circles -- they look like full circles were drilled in a wide board and then the board was ripped to create two inwales, leaving the pockets shy of being a half circle because of the width of the kerf. Because of the changing angles at each end, creating new inwales will be a bit of a job -- as Rollin says in the earlier thread, "Morris rails make a builder earn their canoe building badge!" I have a couple of easier projects to do before I undertake this task -- I want to do it right when I do it, and earn that badge.
Greg
You might want to take a look at the thread found at
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=1587
where Morris rib pockets and inwales are discussed, with some measurements.
Since that thread, I've learned how to post photos, so here are some of fragments of the original inwales that survive for my Morris 6466, which show the shape of the pockets and how they fit over the ribs. The pockets are not full half-circles -- they look like full circles were drilled in a wide board and then the board was ripped to create two inwales, leaving the pockets shy of being a half circle because of the width of the kerf. Because of the changing angles at each end, creating new inwales will be a bit of a job -- as Rollin says in the earlier thread, "Morris rails make a builder earn their canoe building badge!" I have a couple of easier projects to do before I undertake this task -- I want to do it right when I do it, and earn that badge.
Greg
Attachments
Gil Cramer
The wooden canoe Shop, Inc.
Certainly looks like a Morris to me. Gil
Attachments
OP
OP
Treewater
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
Morris
Examination of the inner wale (size, chamfer, pockets), first three and four ribs, and planking certainly points to a Morris. it is identical to the Morris I have but for the changes and one other way. This square back is far more graceful than my 1913 17 footer. It does not have that fullness in the middle but tapers abruptly from the middle, sort of arrow or vee shaped. I got it hoping to have something that would paddle well and take a small motor well. This certainly looks likes it will paddle well. The motor will need a tiller extension set-up. But then, maybe I will rebuild the stern. Sorry Kathryn, no visible serial number. Maybe under the new work.
Examination of the inner wale (size, chamfer, pockets), first three and four ribs, and planking certainly points to a Morris. it is identical to the Morris I have but for the changes and one other way. This square back is far more graceful than my 1913 17 footer. It does not have that fullness in the middle but tapers abruptly from the middle, sort of arrow or vee shaped. I got it hoping to have something that would paddle well and take a small motor well. This certainly looks likes it will paddle well. The motor will need a tiller extension set-up. But then, maybe I will rebuild the stern. Sorry Kathryn, no visible serial number. Maybe under the new work.
Rollin Thurlow
member since 1980
The width of the base of the stem appears to me to be much wider than any of the Morris canoes that I have seen. Maybe its just the angle of the picture but I looks much wider than the normal 3" wide Morris stem. The number of full ribs under the stem is also not typical of the standard Morris canoe. It looks like four full ribs and two cant ribs but it may be three full ribs and three cant ribs but either way it would not be the typical Morris style.
Do the rail caps look like replacements because they are certainly not of the Morris style. The picture of the bolt at the beginning of the thread is also certainly not a Morris bolt.
How thick are the ribs? Typical Morris ribs are 3/8" thick and they keep their full thickness all the way to the ends.
The boat certainly has some Morris characteristics but there were also some other companies that also put splayed stems in their boats.
Do the rail caps look like replacements because they are certainly not of the Morris style. The picture of the bolt at the beginning of the thread is also certainly not a Morris bolt.
How thick are the ribs? Typical Morris ribs are 3/8" thick and they keep their full thickness all the way to the ends.
The boat certainly has some Morris characteristics but there were also some other companies that also put splayed stems in their boats.
OP
OP
Treewater
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
Ribs and stem
The ribs do match the Morris at 3/8th full length. The stem on Morris' reached the 4th rib where this reaches the 6th rib. It is an add on and clearly so. Possibly on top the original. The ribs, however you call them, full or cant, match the Morris. There is a curved piece "sistered" full up the stem to the former deck location. The rail cap is a preplacement but nicely done, spruce, and whatever time period favored those recessed bolt heads was the time it was done. I'll see if I can bring it to the meeting in July. Only the overall shape of the canoe does not favor the Morris I have.
Tim
The ribs do match the Morris at 3/8th full length. The stem on Morris' reached the 4th rib where this reaches the 6th rib. It is an add on and clearly so. Possibly on top the original. The ribs, however you call them, full or cant, match the Morris. There is a curved piece "sistered" full up the stem to the former deck location. The rail cap is a preplacement but nicely done, spruce, and whatever time period favored those recessed bolt heads was the time it was done. I'll see if I can bring it to the meeting in July. Only the overall shape of the canoe does not favor the Morris I have.
Tim
