Have an antique Penn Yan 18' guide canoe with serial number GE-430. All the top trim on this canoe is Mahogany which is not represented by the serial number. The width is definitely 35 1/2 and not 36 and the depth is 12 not 13 1/2 which confirms it to be the guide model produced between 1948 and 1955 but with the Mahogany trim as an extra.. The GES and GEM models produced in earlier years were slightly wider and deeper. A local canoe rebuilder says the lack of star headed bolts used on the thwarts would indicate that it was definitely a post WWII model.... Can anyone tell me more about this canoe? The number 430 would seem to be a low number suggesting it is closer to 1948 than 1955 but that is just a guess... Are order and shipping data available as they are for the Old Towns? The computer link where I found this information is dragonflycanoe.com. Thanks... Harold
heblumer
- Thread starter HEBlumer
- Start date
Unfortunately, no production records exist for Penn Yan canoes. How they numbered boats is a little unclear, but some numbers (with 5 digits) include the year, others (with 3 digits) do not. My belief is that the numbers are not sequential, and they may have started over on an annual basis.
1947 was the last year for the GES and GEM models. In 1948, the trim is unspecified, but the other canoe models have spruce guwales, and mahogany decks, thwarts and seats. Sometime between 1950 and 1952 they specified oak gunwales and mahogany seats, thwarts and decks, and in 1957, they specified 'mahogany finished oak gunwales" and mahogany seats, thwarts and decks.
Not sure what your restorer means by "star headed bolts." Penn Yan typically used Reed and Prince screws for thwarts and seats.
Clear as mud?
1947 was the last year for the GES and GEM models. In 1948, the trim is unspecified, but the other canoe models have spruce guwales, and mahogany decks, thwarts and seats. Sometime between 1950 and 1952 they specified oak gunwales and mahogany seats, thwarts and decks, and in 1957, they specified 'mahogany finished oak gunwales" and mahogany seats, thwarts and decks.
Not sure what your restorer means by "star headed bolts." Penn Yan typically used Reed and Prince screws for thwarts and seats.
Clear as mud?
Wow... that was a fast response... Thank you... You made me go out to the garage and re-check the wood trim on this canoe.... Both inner and outer gunwales are mahogany, the thwarts, seats and decks are mahogany... It appears that the front and rear outer stems are ash or oak... I can't tell the difference but I sure recognize the grain on mahogany... I scraped off the finish down to the bare wood on each... It would seem that 1948 to 1950 is the most logical manufacturing date from what you have said... the low number at 430 could also add to that logic, and possibly indicate a date early in that period...... I think I understood my restorer friend to say that the bolt heads holding the thwarts had heads like the Old Towns, a diamond or star shape... these are simply a phillips flat head set into what looks like an upholstery type washer...
This Penn Yan is in fairly good shape... will have to do some work on the gunwale tips and perhaps replace the decks, but there appear to be no other structural problems... The big job will be removing and redoing the finish and canvas. I am finishing this week the restoration of a badly damaged 1944 square stern Old Town... even found a 3 1/2 hp Air Cooled Sea King which I have restored to put on it... only 28 lbs... Am 74 years old and joined a new chapter of the WCHA at Spooner Wisconsin and decided to try my wood working skills on this kind of restoration... It's been a great challenge and learning experience... don't think I will do any more however, unless I accidentally find a 'throw away' somewhere...
Thanks Dan for your help... Merry Christmas.. Harold
This Penn Yan is in fairly good shape... will have to do some work on the gunwale tips and perhaps replace the decks, but there appear to be no other structural problems... The big job will be removing and redoing the finish and canvas. I am finishing this week the restoration of a badly damaged 1944 square stern Old Town... even found a 3 1/2 hp Air Cooled Sea King which I have restored to put on it... only 28 lbs... Am 74 years old and joined a new chapter of the WCHA at Spooner Wisconsin and decided to try my wood working skills on this kind of restoration... It's been a great challenge and learning experience... don't think I will do any more however, unless I accidentally find a 'throw away' somewhere...
Thanks Dan for your help... Merry Christmas.. Harold
This is in fact the standard Penn Yan fastener. The heads are Reed and Prince (which is like Phillips, but different). Penn Yan never used diamond head bolts, nor do I recall seeing anything but the R&P bolts on a Penn Yan. If there was anything different, it was probably added during repairs.
One thing to keep in mind about catalog specs, is that they are a good guideline, but they do not account for special orders, or for those times when the factory just does something different...
Gil Cramer
The wooden canoe Shop, Inc.
Penn Yan canoes and boats are sometimes difficult to determine exact building dates. I've found that usually, the first 2 digits of the serial number following the letters designate the year, if the canoe/boat were built after WWII and before 1957. As Dan indicated, those usually have 5 digits. I've seen 3 digit serial numbers that were built as early as 1930, but most were 1957 or after. The canoes and boats that I have seen with the early oval black decal, used slotted screws, not Reed and Prince. I've seen a 12' CZT model swift with no serial number whatsoever. My best guess is that your canoe was built sometime later than 1957, but that is purely a guess. Nevertheless, they are good canoes.
Gil Thank you for your comments. You're right is a great canoe and a real beauty with all that mahogany... except for some deterioration at the top of the stems it is really in great shape. Will need to splice in on the ends of three gunwales about three inches of new wood... not sure yet if I can avoid replacing one of the decks but otherwise the job is just to remove the old varnish and re-varnish and canvas it. On the Dragonfly web site the chart indicates that the GE model was built between 1948 and 1955.. It is clearly marked GE 430 and the dimensions don't match the GES or GEM models which were discontinued in 1947. Another guess could be that it was special order by someone wanting it to be as similar as possible to the GEM model that was discontinued in 1947... As a result I still think the 1948 to 1950 time frame is the the most logical... The dialogue and issues we have discussed will probably be as important to a potential buyer as would a proven production date. Thank you and Merry Christmas Harold
Don't believe everything that Dragonfly guy says - sometimes he is just full of it!
Information comes to light at various times, (e.g. the Guide offered in a 1957 flyer), and the site doesn't get updated... Also, catalog dimensions are notorious for being wrong for a variety of reasons, starting with inconsistent and inaccurate reporting by the catalog copywriters to changes over time to the canoes themselves, both during and well after construction.
