Early North Bay Canoe Company canoe — Bill & Nona Schorse, possibly 1983 / No. 105

[Jossi]

Hello all,

I’m hoping the Peterborough experts here might enjoy having a crack at a canoe identification mystery.

I have a 14-foot wood-and-canvas canoe with a brass plate that clearly reads:

1483 / 105

For the purposes of this question, I’m confident in that reading of the plate — I’m not trying to decipher an ambiguous 3, 8, etc.

The canoe measures approximately:

• Length: 14’
• Beam: 34½”
• Depth: 15”
• Weight: approximately 64 lb
• Ribs: 26
• Hand-caned seats
• Metal stem band
• Wood-and-canvas construction

The canoe came from Ontario before eventually making its way to Nova Scotia.

I’ve been trying to establish whether 1483 is actually a Peterborough Canoe Company model number, rather than assuming that it is simply because it looks like one.

From what I’ve been able to establish, Peterborough changed from its earlier one-, two- and three-digit model numbers to four-digit model numbers around 1939–41. The commonly available Peterborough model lists, however, appear to have a conspicuous gap between 1479 and 1488.

That made 1483 particularly interesting.

I then found Dick Persson’s posts here explaining that 1487 was indeed a Peterborough Auto Boat model number, one of several four-digit Auto Boat numbers used after 1939. I’ve also looked at a digitized 1939 Peterborough catalogue showing the earlier 12-foot Auto Boat No. 12.

That raises a question I haven’t been able to answer:

Does anyone have catalogue, price-list, dealer-list or other primary-source material identifying Peterborough models 1480–1487 — and specifically 1483?

I’m especially interested in whether this block represented four-digit redesignations of earlier models around the 1939–41 numbering change, possibly spanning different types of watercraft rather than forming a simple consecutive series of canoe models.

I understand that Peterborough’s second number was a serial/work-order number and that those sequences were periodically restarted, so I’m treating 105 as the work-order number, not as a useful model identifier.

I’m also deliberately keeping Canadian Canoe Company / Canadian Watercraft / Chestnut possibilities open. I don’t want to turn “1483 looks like a Peterborough number” into a Peterborough identification without evidence.

If anyone has access to the Peterborough catalogue collection — particularly material from 1939–1941, old price lists, dealer sheets, or anything showing the transition from the earlier numbering system to the four-digit system — I would be extremely grateful if you could check 1483.

And if 1483 rings a bell with anyone immediately, I would love to know what I’ve got!

I can post detailed photographs of the canoe, brass plate, stems, ribs/planking, decks, seats and overall hull profile.

Thanks very much,

Joss
Nova Scotia

 

[Dan Miller]

It probably isn’t a Peterborough. They didn’t use a plate like this to mark serial numbers, and the remnant of the decal is not typical of Peterborough.

 

[Jossi]

Thank you — that is exactly the sort of information I was hoping someone here might spot.

The plate style in particular is very interesting. Do you recognize this type of brass model/serial plate as being associated with another Canadian manufacturer — Canadian Canoe Co., Canadian Watercraft, Chestnut, or anyone else?

And is there anything particular about the surviving decal fragment that rules Peterborough out or points you toward another maker?

I had been following the Peterborough possibility largely because 1483 fits numerically into their early four-digit range, but I definitely don’t want the number to lead the identification if the physical evidence says otherwise.

If there are particular construction details that would help distinguish the makers, I’m happy to photograph anything useful.

Thanks!

 

[Jossi]

The point about the brass plate is really interesting, particularly if Peterborough didn’t normally identify their canoes this way.

I do wonder about the sticker, though. The canoe has been restored at some point in its life, and to my eye the sticker looks considerably later than the brass plate. What remains of it includes “Handcrafted…” and an Ontario address/telephone number ending 472-7204, so I’m wondering whether it might be a restorer’s or later builder’s label rather than an original maker’s decal.

I certainly could be wrong! Do you recognize either the style of the brass plate or the sticker? I’d be very interested to know what specifically about the plate makes you think it isn’t Peterborough.

Edit:
I did a little more digging after posting this, and there may be another possibility for the sticker.

The surviving phone number appears to end in 472-7204, which seems consistent with the North Bay area. I then came across an older thread here about a Peterborough 604 where, after the canvas was removed, the owner found a note on the planking saying it had been repaired and recanvassed by North Bay Canoe Company / W. Schorse in September 1981.

I gather Bill Schorse started North Bay Canoe Company in 1979 (my birth year!) and did a lot of traditional cedar-canvas repair and restoration work as well as building canoes.

That makes me wonder whether the sticker on mine could possibly be from a later restoration rather than its original manufacturer’s decal. I haven’t been able to confirm that 472-7204 was North Bay Canoe Company’s number, though, so that’s only a lead at this point.

If anyone remembers Bill’s old company labels or happens to have a canoe that went through his shop, I’d be very interested to compare them.

 

[Murat V]

Believe you have an early canoe built by North Bay Canoe Co. Agree with Dan that Peterborough never used that style of brass plate attached to the stem to mark their serial numbers. Neither did any of the other major canoe companies (Canadian, Chestnut, etc). The Peterborough code post-1941 always had a space between the first four digits (model code) and the remaining digits. The normal oxidation on the brass makes it look older than it really is.

Went back and did a search of all the Wooden Canoe Journal back issues. Bill and Winona Schorse of North Bay Canoe Co appear in the Builder Directory as early as Issue 10 (Sping 1982). By Issue 14 (Spring 1983) they have a more detailed listing explaining they made canoes in 14' - 17' lengths:

In Issue 22 (Spring 1985) their listing includes their telephone number which matches your remaining decal:

By Issue 26 (Sping 1986) they have a new address and tel number

Regarding your serial number, 1483105:

I wouldn't doubt the first two digits are the boat's length, length, followed by the year. This would fit both the dimensional info (14 footer) and the year (1983) before he moved to a new location in 1986. Many smaller canoe companies of the same era (Langford, Northland) would often be practical like this with their serial coding system.

 

[Jossi]

Wow! This is fantastic info! How do I start restoring it? I have already decided I want to fix the hand caned seat myself…

 

[Murat V]

You could begin by getting your hands on a copy of Mike Elliot's book. It has most of the details needed to tackle a restoration yourself. It includes a detailed chapter on caning seats.
https://www.amazon.ca/This-Old-Canoe-Restore-Wood-Canvas/dp/0994863306

Alternatively, since you're in Nova Scotia, try contacting some folks in the restoration business and see if they offer restoration classes or would be open to arrangement for you to use their shop. The Northern Lakes chapter of the WCHA has a builder directory of restorers in Canada at the following link:
https://wcha-northernlakes.blogspot.com/p/builder-directory.html

Looks like Harmony Custom Woodwork is in the province with a few more over in New Brunswick.

Hope that helps

 

[Jossi]

Thank sooooo much. You’ve made my day!

 

[Jossi]

This discovery has sent me down another rabbit hole, and I’d love to hear what those of you who know historic canoe design see when you look at this canoe.

Assuming Murat is right that this is an early North Bay Canoe Co. canoe, possibly 14’ / 1983 / no. 105, I’m now really interested in understanding the canoe itself, rather than just identifying its maker.

The measurements I have are approximately 14’ long × 34½” beam × 15” deep, 64 lb, with 26 ribs. Looking at it, it seems quite short, broad and deep for its length, but at the same time it has fairly fine ends and a beautifully rounded hull rather than looking like a squat, flat-bottomed recreational canoe.

From contemporary material I’ve found, Bill Schorse was very interested in older canoe designs and was specifically looking back to nineteenth-century canoe building. That makes me wonder whether these proportions were deliberate echoes of an older type of canoe, or an adaptation of one for Northern Ontario conditions.

What do you see in this hull?

Is there anything about the 34½” beam and 15” depth on only a 14’ canoe, the cross-section, tumblehome, sheer, stems, rib pattern, decks or overall shape that suggests a particular historical design tradition or older canoe that Bill may have been drawing from?

I’m also curious about the Schorses themselves as builders. If this really dates to around 1983, it would be from only a few years after Bill and Nona founded North Bay Canoe Company. Does that make it an interesting or unusual survivor in its own right? Are early North Bay canoes uncommon, and is there anything distinctive about their early construction that I should document carefully before I begin restoration?

I’m not particularly concerned with monetary value — what I’d really like to understand is why they built this canoe the way they did, what they may have been trying to achieve with this hull, and where it fits in Bill and Nona Schorse’s development as canoe builders.

I’m very happy to take whatever measurements or detailed photographs would help. If there are particular dimensions that would let you compare the hull with known historic designs, tell me exactly where to measure and I’ll do it.

This has become much more interesting to me than simply finding a manufacturer’s name!

 

[Murat V]

Found an article from Wooden Canoe Journal (Issue 33 - Spring 1988) that might interest you...

 

[Jossi]

Ahhh, amazing. Thank you for this. I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and research, so much.