Bee Propolis Varnish
- Thread starter Splinter
- Start date
Rob Stevens
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
From Wikipedia;
Propolis is a wax-like resinous substance collected by honeybees from tree buds or other botanical sources and used as cement and to seal cracks or open spaces in the hive. Its color varies from green to brown and reddish, depending of its botanical source. Honeybees will use propolis to attempt to seal any gap inside the hive that is smaller than 3/16" or 1/4" (5 mm or 6 mm) while they leave themselves a bee space of approximately 9.5 mm, or 3/8", larger spaces being filled with wax comb.
Traditionally, beekeepers assumed that bees sealed the cracks and joints of the beehive with propolis to protect the colony from the elements (like rain) and prevent drafts during the wintertime. More recent research suggests that bees not only survive, but thrive with increased ventilation during the winter in most temperate regions of the world. Propolis is now thought to:
1. reinforce the structural stability of the hive
2. reduce vibration
3. make the hive more defensible by sealing alternate entrances
4. Bees may also use it to prevent diseases and parasites in the hive.
Bees normally carry waste (dead larva, etc.) out of and away from the hive. However if, for example, a mouse chews its way into the hive for a winter nest and dies, the bees won't be able to move it out through the hive entrance. They have instead been known to seal the carcass in propolis, effectively mummifying the mouse.
Propolis is a wax-like resinous substance collected by honeybees from tree buds or other botanical sources and used as cement and to seal cracks or open spaces in the hive. Its color varies from green to brown and reddish, depending of its botanical source. Honeybees will use propolis to attempt to seal any gap inside the hive that is smaller than 3/16" or 1/4" (5 mm or 6 mm) while they leave themselves a bee space of approximately 9.5 mm, or 3/8", larger spaces being filled with wax comb.
Traditionally, beekeepers assumed that bees sealed the cracks and joints of the beehive with propolis to protect the colony from the elements (like rain) and prevent drafts during the wintertime. More recent research suggests that bees not only survive, but thrive with increased ventilation during the winter in most temperate regions of the world. Propolis is now thought to:
1. reinforce the structural stability of the hive
2. reduce vibration
3. make the hive more defensible by sealing alternate entrances
4. Bees may also use it to prevent diseases and parasites in the hive.
Bees normally carry waste (dead larva, etc.) out of and away from the hive. However if, for example, a mouse chews its way into the hive for a winter nest and dies, the bees won't be able to move it out through the hive entrance. They have instead been known to seal the carcass in propolis, effectively mummifying the mouse.
Dan Lindberg
Ex Wood Hoarder
So it's bee collected and recycled tree sap?/stuff.
How do you collect/seperate it from the rest of the bee hive material?
Dan
How do you collect/seperate it from the rest of the bee hive material?
Dan
Larry Bowers
yellow cedar manipulator
hi,
the propolis is actually put everywhere in the hive. the side of the supers on the frames in cracks just about anywhere really. It is not really mixed in with honey or the bees wax, it truly is used as glue. To get some it is really just a matter of scraping the sides of the super or along the ends of the frames and so on. very sticky stuff
the propolis is actually put everywhere in the hive. the side of the supers on the frames in cracks just about anywhere really. It is not really mixed in with honey or the bees wax, it truly is used as glue. To get some it is really just a matter of scraping the sides of the super or along the ends of the frames and so on. very sticky stuff
OP
OP
Splinter
Wood Girl #1186
Dividing propolis
Actually, when you mix it with the other dry ingredients in the jar, the shellac flakes and the manila copal it's all just a bunch of "STUFF" in a jar. When you mix in the denatured alcohol, it all disolves as it's supposed to. Later when you strain it, you get a collection of all the beehive debris that was stuck in the propolis. Comb, bugs, beeheads, dead baby bees, wings, etc. You just strain it through several layers of cheesecloth and throw the junk away. Nice stuff!!! It's looking great on the new cherry seats with the garnety stain. Try it! This is easier than I thought it would be and it's so worth it to have this great finish from an ancient recipe and it's not something you have to protect your lungs from. Dries fast too. I put the revised recipe and the resource for the ingredients back at the start of this thread so you can just pull it off there and use it.
Splinter
Actually, when you mix it with the other dry ingredients in the jar, the shellac flakes and the manila copal it's all just a bunch of "STUFF" in a jar. When you mix in the denatured alcohol, it all disolves as it's supposed to. Later when you strain it, you get a collection of all the beehive debris that was stuck in the propolis. Comb, bugs, beeheads, dead baby bees, wings, etc. You just strain it through several layers of cheesecloth and throw the junk away. Nice stuff!!! It's looking great on the new cherry seats with the garnety stain. Try it! This is easier than I thought it would be and it's so worth it to have this great finish from an ancient recipe and it's not something you have to protect your lungs from. Dries fast too. I put the revised recipe and the resource for the ingredients back at the start of this thread so you can just pull it off there and use it.
Splinter
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Dan Lindberg
Ex Wood Hoarder
Not to be negitive about it but,
What about UV protection/resistance?
Doesn't protect what it's covering from the UV and does it break down under UV as other finishes do or??
If it doesn't protect or have resistance to UV, it doesn't sound like it should be used on stuff going outdoors.
Dan
What about UV protection/resistance?
Doesn't protect what it's covering from the UV and does it break down under UV as other finishes do or??
If it doesn't protect or have resistance to UV, it doesn't sound like it should be used on stuff going outdoors.
Dan
OP
OP
Splinter
Wood Girl #1186
Uv
Since I haven't done a time test on UV exposure, I don't know the answer to that. As far as all UV protection additives go for finishes. You should know that they only slow the process down, they do not prevent it. Most of these are shown to begin breaking down or diminishing thier viability within 6 months. Splinter
Since I haven't done a time test on UV exposure, I don't know the answer to that. As far as all UV protection additives go for finishes. You should know that they only slow the process down, they do not prevent it. Most of these are shown to begin breaking down or diminishing thier viability within 6 months. Splinter
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
Very kool thread. Took off the respirator and looked at the Captains varnish, yum yum Xylene and stuff with 2- etc. From what I remember from high school chemistry the stuff with number and hyphens was bad. Went looking for propolis locally and lo and behold, just up the road
http://www.dutchmansgold.com/
then went looking for manilla copal and found this, also local - pricey but terrific number of substances and dyes - wonder how a nice red would look- played violin and fiddle for years, never gave much thought to finish, although I'm sure the luthiers among us will just nod..
http://www.violins.ca/varnish/violin_varnish_gums_resins_dyes.html
thanks Splinter for bringing this up, as a closet environmentalist, amateur historian and dangerous chemist I'm off to try some different varnish recipes.
http://www.dutchmansgold.com/
then went looking for manilla copal and found this, also local - pricey but terrific number of substances and dyes - wonder how a nice red would look- played violin and fiddle for years, never gave much thought to finish, although I'm sure the luthiers among us will just nod..
http://www.violins.ca/varnish/violin_varnish_gums_resins_dyes.html
thanks Splinter for bringing this up, as a closet environmentalist, amateur historian and dangerous chemist I'm off to try some different varnish recipes.
OP
OP
Splinter
Wood Girl #1186
The WONDERFUL BEE VARNISH
From one novice chemist and searching in wonder environmentalist to another, Keep in mind this: You eat shellac every time you eat shiny candy such as Reese pieces, it's coated with it. As a natural material it is quite non-toxic. You can apply it inside with no mask or other air purifying system but, happily if you apply this outside in the indirect sunlight you will smell that wonderful honey smell, faintly, and if you have any olfactory senses left. It dries fast so you can apply more coats as you need to without much delay at all. I love the way it gives a nice permanence to the old 1915 Otca. The finish is so much more beautiful than this wreck ever was. Once stung by this wonderful varnish, you will not want to use anything else. Is it addictive? I believe it was meant to be so. Happily.
From one novice chemist and searching in wonder environmentalist to another, Keep in mind this: You eat shellac every time you eat shiny candy such as Reese pieces, it's coated with it. As a natural material it is quite non-toxic. You can apply it inside with no mask or other air purifying system but, happily if you apply this outside in the indirect sunlight you will smell that wonderful honey smell, faintly, and if you have any olfactory senses left. It dries fast so you can apply more coats as you need to without much delay at all. I love the way it gives a nice permanence to the old 1915 Otca. The finish is so much more beautiful than this wreck ever was. Once stung by this wonderful varnish, you will not want to use anything else. Is it addictive? I believe it was meant to be so. Happily.
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Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
varnish
I'm quite taken with the whole idea, and I'm looking forward to colouring some batches to apply to paddles and wanigans and the like - It would make curly maple and curly ash look terrific I'm sure. Again, great thread and something I was around for years but never gave any thought too while I was toxifying my carhole in the quest for deep brightwork. Since we're into food trivia I'm sure you know cashews are'nt nuts at all.
I'm quite taken with the whole idea, and I'm looking forward to colouring some batches to apply to paddles and wanigans and the like - It would make curly maple and curly ash look terrific I'm sure. Again, great thread and something I was around for years but never gave any thought too while I was toxifying my carhole in the quest for deep brightwork. Since we're into food trivia I'm sure you know cashews are'nt nuts at all.
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
Natural
"As a natural material it is quite non-toxic."
Propolis may well be quite non-toxic -- but not because it is "natural."
Naturally toxic material include poison ivy,a virulent allergen; pyrethrin, an effective insecticide (from chrysanthemums); digitalis, a powerful poison (from foxgloves); cyanide, at harmful levels, in some foodstuffs and plants such as cassava.
Indeed, the inside of the kernal of Andre's cashews contains a caustic, toxic oil called cardol. Cashews must be cleaned to remove the cardol and then roasted or boiled to remove the toxins before they can be eaten.
I think propolis varnish sounds nifty, and it might even be tasty -- but don't assume that "natural" equals "safe."
Shifting gears -- does anyone know of anything that can be added to varnishes or shellac (whether natural or otherwise) that increases resistance to UV? What goes into spar varnish that makes it more UV resistant than non-marine varnish?
"As a natural material it is quite non-toxic."
Propolis may well be quite non-toxic -- but not because it is "natural."
Naturally toxic material include poison ivy,a virulent allergen; pyrethrin, an effective insecticide (from chrysanthemums); digitalis, a powerful poison (from foxgloves); cyanide, at harmful levels, in some foodstuffs and plants such as cassava.
Indeed, the inside of the kernal of Andre's cashews contains a caustic, toxic oil called cardol. Cashews must be cleaned to remove the cardol and then roasted or boiled to remove the toxins before they can be eaten.
I think propolis varnish sounds nifty, and it might even be tasty -- but don't assume that "natural" equals "safe."
Shifting gears -- does anyone know of anything that can be added to varnishes or shellac (whether natural or otherwise) that increases resistance to UV? What goes into spar varnish that makes it more UV resistant than non-marine varnish?
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
Toxic!
Hi Greg,
good bit of info, and in fact the port orford cedar arrow shafts I buy come from Rose City Archery in Oregon, and they have been reusing the shavings and waste to extract the oil, whose natural toxicity makes excellent, safer repellents.
http://www.rosecityarchery.com/
I think the non toxic reference was to shellac, not the propolis, and luckily no one around here sells raw cashews, which are actually a fruit stem if I'm not mistaken. Really cant be too careful with this stuff, thats for sure.
found this on the web,
from US Patent 6773104 - Ultraviolet filter coating
A stabilizer is a substance which prevents the decomposition of the fluorescent material by oxygen or ultraviolet light and it is usually contained in the same layer in which the fluorescent material is contained. Although there is no particular limitation for the stabilizer, its specific examples are antioxidant of a hindered amine type, an antioxidant of a hindered phenol type and a light stabilizer of a benzoate type and the like. An ultraviolet radiation absorber may be used as a stabilizer as well.
Examples of an antioxidant of a hindered amine type are bis(2,2,6,6-tetramethyl-4-piperidyl) sebacate such as Tinuvin 770 (a product of Ciba-Geigy); bis(1,2,2,6,6-pentamethyl-4-piperidyl) sebacate such as Tinuvin 765 (a product of Ciba-Geigy); and bis(1,2,2,6,6-pentamethyl-4-piperidyl) 2-(3,5-di-tert-butyl-4-hydroxybenzyl)-2-n-butylmalonate such as Tinuvin 114 (a product of Ciba-Geigy).
yikes, hope thats not in my sunscreen! Off to mix some varnish, with about the same sensitivity to sun as me i guess.
Hi Greg,
good bit of info, and in fact the port orford cedar arrow shafts I buy come from Rose City Archery in Oregon, and they have been reusing the shavings and waste to extract the oil, whose natural toxicity makes excellent, safer repellents.
http://www.rosecityarchery.com/
I think the non toxic reference was to shellac, not the propolis, and luckily no one around here sells raw cashews, which are actually a fruit stem if I'm not mistaken. Really cant be too careful with this stuff, thats for sure.
found this on the web,
from US Patent 6773104 - Ultraviolet filter coating
A stabilizer is a substance which prevents the decomposition of the fluorescent material by oxygen or ultraviolet light and it is usually contained in the same layer in which the fluorescent material is contained. Although there is no particular limitation for the stabilizer, its specific examples are antioxidant of a hindered amine type, an antioxidant of a hindered phenol type and a light stabilizer of a benzoate type and the like. An ultraviolet radiation absorber may be used as a stabilizer as well.
Examples of an antioxidant of a hindered amine type are bis(2,2,6,6-tetramethyl-4-piperidyl) sebacate such as Tinuvin 770 (a product of Ciba-Geigy); bis(1,2,2,6,6-pentamethyl-4-piperidyl) sebacate such as Tinuvin 765 (a product of Ciba-Geigy); and bis(1,2,2,6,6-pentamethyl-4-piperidyl) 2-(3,5-di-tert-butyl-4-hydroxybenzyl)-2-n-butylmalonate such as Tinuvin 114 (a product of Ciba-Geigy).
yikes, hope thats not in my sunscreen! Off to mix some varnish, with about the same sensitivity to sun as me i guess.
Wow!
Someone who is into fly fishing, wooden boats and violin varnishes... that's rare.
I am a violin restorer with 30 years experience. Propolis has been suspected to be an ingredient in old violin varnishes for as long as the things have been around. The sad fact is, nobody really has a clue about what the exact ingredients that Strad (or any of the old makers) actually used in their varnishes. There is very little original varnish remaining on these 300 year old masterpieces, and there have been constant light french polishings over that time that have added a layer of shellac and other resins to the outer surface. Aside from that, the components have oxidized and polymerized during that time span, making current chemical analysis a futile endeavor.
That said, propolis is pretty magical stuff. About 15 years ago I was talking to a local beekeeper about it. The next time I saw him at the market, he called me over and produced about half a dozen metal screens (I know nothing about beekeeping) and gave them to me. The residue on them was a rich golden amber color. I took them back and painstakingly scraped the resin off them and dissolved it in anhydrous ethanol. After a few days, all of the wax and other debris had settled to the bottom and I carefully decanted the beautiful amber liquid off.
Prelininary testing was on spruce and curly maple and it left a surprisingly tough and intense looking finish on the wood that sanded about as well as dewaxed shellac or seedlac. That was the extent of my research. The stuff I got was way too bright looking to want to use on a violin, so I let the stuff sit in a jar until I finally suspected it was no longer good. Shellac has an indefinite shelf life in flake form but should not be kept for more than 6-12 months once dissolved. I suspected the same might be true for propolis and I ended up throwing it out.
I wish I had some of the stuff on hand right now as I have a wooden boat to varnish and I would like to do some experimenting.
Like Splinter says, is has a satisfying and intoxicating smell. Beware though, hardware type denatured alcohol has highly poisonous methanol added to it. Do not use huge quantities of it in an unventilated room without a carbon filter mask on.
Someone who is into fly fishing, wooden boats and violin varnishes... that's rare.
I am a violin restorer with 30 years experience. Propolis has been suspected to be an ingredient in old violin varnishes for as long as the things have been around. The sad fact is, nobody really has a clue about what the exact ingredients that Strad (or any of the old makers) actually used in their varnishes. There is very little original varnish remaining on these 300 year old masterpieces, and there have been constant light french polishings over that time that have added a layer of shellac and other resins to the outer surface. Aside from that, the components have oxidized and polymerized during that time span, making current chemical analysis a futile endeavor.
That said, propolis is pretty magical stuff. About 15 years ago I was talking to a local beekeeper about it. The next time I saw him at the market, he called me over and produced about half a dozen metal screens (I know nothing about beekeeping) and gave them to me. The residue on them was a rich golden amber color. I took them back and painstakingly scraped the resin off them and dissolved it in anhydrous ethanol. After a few days, all of the wax and other debris had settled to the bottom and I carefully decanted the beautiful amber liquid off.
Prelininary testing was on spruce and curly maple and it left a surprisingly tough and intense looking finish on the wood that sanded about as well as dewaxed shellac or seedlac. That was the extent of my research. The stuff I got was way too bright looking to want to use on a violin, so I let the stuff sit in a jar until I finally suspected it was no longer good. Shellac has an indefinite shelf life in flake form but should not be kept for more than 6-12 months once dissolved. I suspected the same might be true for propolis and I ended up throwing it out.
I wish I had some of the stuff on hand right now as I have a wooden boat to varnish and I would like to do some experimenting.
Like Splinter says, is has a satisfying and intoxicating smell. Beware though, hardware type denatured alcohol has highly poisonous methanol added to it. Do not use huge quantities of it in an unventilated room without a carbon filter mask on.
OP
OP
Splinter
Wood Girl #1186
Your State Dept of Agriculture
Will have an apiary inspector that can get you in touch with a beekeeper near you. They are usually grateful to have someone scrape it off the frames. You may need to bring a hive tool or use theirs. It looks sort of like a paint scrapper. Propolis doesn't "go bad" so you can just keep the dried gobs of it in a jar indefinitely. Thanks for mentioning the alchohol. I forget about that.
Will have an apiary inspector that can get you in touch with a beekeeper near you. They are usually grateful to have someone scrape it off the frames. You may need to bring a hive tool or use theirs. It looks sort of like a paint scrapper. Propolis doesn't "go bad" so you can just keep the dried gobs of it in a jar indefinitely. Thanks for mentioning the alchohol. I forget about that.
Larry Meyer
Wooden Canoes are in the Blood
Long cast
Ok this is a long cast, but this thread has had many tangents, so let try another and see if I can fetch up an answer. As a guitar player, I am well aware that humidity is a problem with guitars. Pay no heed and a dry winter house will crack the top. Also aware that guitars are varnished only on the outer surfaces.
So, why aren’t the inside surfaces of guitars varnished? I assume for a long time, it was not technically possible? Is it now technically possible?
Would varnishing the inside of a guitar do a better job of protecting the guitar from dangers posed by humidity variation? I am assuming the wood would be more stable, if better sealed.
Would varnishing the inside have a positive or negative effect on tone?
Ok this is a long cast, but this thread has had many tangents, so let try another and see if I can fetch up an answer. As a guitar player, I am well aware that humidity is a problem with guitars. Pay no heed and a dry winter house will crack the top. Also aware that guitars are varnished only on the outer surfaces.
So, why aren’t the inside surfaces of guitars varnished? I assume for a long time, it was not technically possible? Is it now technically possible?
Would varnishing the inside of a guitar do a better job of protecting the guitar from dangers posed by humidity variation? I am assuming the wood would be more stable, if better sealed.
Would varnishing the inside have a positive or negative effect on tone?
Very good question, Larry.
In general, guitars don't need to be finished on the inside since they are strategically braced to resist bending forces and that includes those that are present when there is a differential in moisture absorption rates between a sealed surface and an unsealed surface. The extremely thin plates and sides (3/32") of a typical guitars aren't strong enough to overcome the much sturdier bracing and therefore, they stay flat... relatively, anyway. There is always some movement during seasonal changes.
Make no mistake, though, no amount of sealing (except maybe pressure impregnation) will stop moisture from entering and exiting the wood during changes in relative humidity. Even a guitar that has been thoroughly sealed on both sides (yes, many makers do just that) will easily crack along the grain lines when the relative humidity gets down below 20-25%.
In general, guitars don't need to be finished on the inside since they are strategically braced to resist bending forces and that includes those that are present when there is a differential in moisture absorption rates between a sealed surface and an unsealed surface. The extremely thin plates and sides (3/32") of a typical guitars aren't strong enough to overcome the much sturdier bracing and therefore, they stay flat... relatively, anyway. There is always some movement during seasonal changes.
Make no mistake, though, no amount of sealing (except maybe pressure impregnation) will stop moisture from entering and exiting the wood during changes in relative humidity. Even a guitar that has been thoroughly sealed on both sides (yes, many makers do just that) will easily crack along the grain lines when the relative humidity gets down below 20-25%.
OP
OP
Splinter
Wood Girl #1186
Way off subject but Dan is right
Most of the thin guitar parts are 3 ply laminations helping to limit dimensional stability issues with the variety of woods that are used. The insides of pianos are not finished either. Generally, a new piano needs more tuning than an old one. As a piano goes through more seasonal changes and are exposed to several relative humidity changes that go beyond the 25-55% acceptability range, the maple soundboard (what the stings are attached to) cracks somewhere along the grain, and it can become more stable needing less tuning. Hard Maples (acer saccharum) dimensional stability is 12/64, quite high, so it is hard to imagine that a thick solid lumber glue up of that size with that much tension on it wouldn't have a problem. I think mostly electric guitars are made of maple (mine is) and finished on all sides, many classical guitars are made out of spruce. Wait, why are we talking about this.....????
Most of the thin guitar parts are 3 ply laminations helping to limit dimensional stability issues with the variety of woods that are used. The insides of pianos are not finished either. Generally, a new piano needs more tuning than an old one. As a piano goes through more seasonal changes and are exposed to several relative humidity changes that go beyond the 25-55% acceptability range, the maple soundboard (what the stings are attached to) cracks somewhere along the grain, and it can become more stable needing less tuning. Hard Maples (acer saccharum) dimensional stability is 12/64, quite high, so it is hard to imagine that a thick solid lumber glue up of that size with that much tension on it wouldn't have a problem. I think mostly electric guitars are made of maple (mine is) and finished on all sides, many classical guitars are made out of spruce. Wait, why are we talking about this.....????
