Anybody Know What This Is?
- Thread starter Bradford Wyman
- Start date
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
It's a Charles River courting canoe. There were many builders along the Charles, and it's sometimes possible to figure out which one built a particular canoe, or at least narrow it down. This one has a short deck, which can help narrow down who may have built it.
There's interesting information on the Charles River builders-- but don't be confused by the fact that Old Town had a canoe model they called "the Charles River"-- that's different-- but can confuse folks who use the "search" function (above) to locate information on these canoes.
I'll poke around and find some interesting old threads...
Kathy
There's interesting information on the Charles River builders-- but don't be confused by the fact that Old Town had a canoe model they called "the Charles River"-- that's different-- but can confuse folks who use the "search" function (above) to locate information on these canoes.
I'll poke around and find some interesting old threads...
Kathy
Paul Miller
Canoe Nut
Looks like a Kingsbury, Charles River builder.
The deck looks like one I have, and I have also attached a pic that had been posted on this site before that shows other Charles River builders decks.
I can't tell but I would think you have non-tapered ribs that are shaved to a thin tip that attach to the inwale.
Nice canoe,
Paul
The deck looks like one I have, and I have also attached a pic that had been posted on this site before that shows other Charles River builders decks.
I can't tell but I would think you have non-tapered ribs that are shaved to a thin tip that attach to the inwale.
Nice canoe,
Paul
Attachments
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
This post contains some interesting pictures of the Charles River and the heyday of canoes:
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5221&highlight=charles+river+pictures
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5221&highlight=charles+river+pictures
pat chapman
Willits biographer
Where is the canoe located? If on the west coast, it could be a Monohon canoe. Before Alden Kingsbury moved back to the Charles River area and started Kingsbury Canoes, he and a partner operated Monohon Boat and Canoe Company in Monohon, Washington.
See http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=2514&highlight=monohon
See http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=2514&highlight=monohon
OP
OP
Bradford Wyman
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Hmmm...
Thanks for your interest in my query.
I am impressed by the similarity of the Kingsbury deck pictures posted by Paul. The canoe is on the east coast (NH), so I assume that it is not a Monohan.
I guess I'll go with a tentative call for Kingsbury unless/until someone comes up with more definitive information.
Brad
Thanks for your interest in my query.
I am impressed by the similarity of the Kingsbury deck pictures posted by Paul. The canoe is on the east coast (NH), so I assume that it is not a Monohan.
I guess I'll go with a tentative call for Kingsbury unless/until someone comes up with more definitive information.
Brad
OP
OP
Bradford Wyman
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Follow-Up on Kingsbury ID
Hello again, forum-
I actually went to visit this canoe yesterday. I am hoping someone out there can tell me if Kingsbury used serial numbers. I could not find one. There are two filled holes on the (stern) deck where a plaque might have been fastened.
Maybe someone has some thoughts about these observations:
Paul Miller's observation that the ribs are non-tapered and shaved to a thin end at the inwale is correct.
I think the seats are not original equipment and may have been installed backwards (ie. back seat at the bow, front in the stern).
The thwarts are equidistant from the ends. One is oak or ash and not original.
All have been attached to the inwale by steel (maybe stainless) slot-headed counter-sink bolts, which could easily be replaced with brass carriage-bolts.
I think the inside woodwork was stained prior to varnishing.
There are two repaired rib tips and some planking and a what appears to be a different species of wood stained mahogany on the starboard outwale.
The length of the canoe is 17' overall, which seems long to me.
Thank you for any observations you might care to offer.
Brad Wyman
Hello again, forum-
I actually went to visit this canoe yesterday. I am hoping someone out there can tell me if Kingsbury used serial numbers. I could not find one. There are two filled holes on the (stern) deck where a plaque might have been fastened.
Maybe someone has some thoughts about these observations:
Paul Miller's observation that the ribs are non-tapered and shaved to a thin end at the inwale is correct.
I think the seats are not original equipment and may have been installed backwards (ie. back seat at the bow, front in the stern).
The thwarts are equidistant from the ends. One is oak or ash and not original.
All have been attached to the inwale by steel (maybe stainless) slot-headed counter-sink bolts, which could easily be replaced with brass carriage-bolts.
I think the inside woodwork was stained prior to varnishing.
There are two repaired rib tips and some planking and a what appears to be a different species of wood stained mahogany on the starboard outwale.
The length of the canoe is 17' overall, which seems long to me.
Thank you for any observations you might care to offer.
Brad Wyman
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Most courting canoes are 17 or 18 feet long. These canoes had to not only carry people, but canoe chairs, pillows, Victrola, picnic basket... etc.
The WCHA assembly topic in 2007 concerned Charles River courting canoes. If you email me your snail-mail address, I'll send you a copy of the journal Wooden Canoe, which discusses these canoes.
Kathy
kathrynklos@gmail.com
The WCHA assembly topic in 2007 concerned Charles River courting canoes. If you email me your snail-mail address, I'll send you a copy of the journal Wooden Canoe, which discusses these canoes.
Kathy
kathrynklos@gmail.com
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Actually, 16' seems to be the most common courting canoe size, even those with long decks. That said, 17' Charles River-area canoes were offered and may have been second most common. The slotted steel screws/bolts cold be original- I've seen them in a number of Charles River-area canoes. Changing to brass or bronze would be a good idea. I doubt the interior was stained prior to varnishing at the factory. More likely, you're seeing the dark color of aged varnish, or whoever worked on the canoe before added the stain. If there is stain, it's best to get it out (if possible) with a good stripping protocol so the beauty of the wood isn't muddied up by the stain.
Not sure why you think the seats have been switched. The bow seat would be wider (as it appears in your photos), and the stern seat narrower. And an oak/ash thwart would surely be replaced. All of the trim should most likely be mahogany, though other woods could have been used. In any case, the two thwarts would have been made of the same thing..
So 17' may seem long, but the lines of the 17' models are (to my eye) the most pleasing of all the lengths.
M
Not sure why you think the seats have been switched. The bow seat would be wider (as it appears in your photos), and the stern seat narrower. And an oak/ash thwart would surely be replaced. All of the trim should most likely be mahogany, though other woods could have been used. In any case, the two thwarts would have been made of the same thing..
So 17' may seem long, but the lines of the 17' models are (to my eye) the most pleasing of all the lengths.
M
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Hi R.C.,
Generally, I call a courting canoe one with long decks- at least 36" but usually 48" or even more, and usually with some sort of fancy paint job. It may or may not be a "torpedo", and it would usually have mahogany trim (though makers of old and the few of today have made them with other trim materials, such as birdseye maple).
True courting canoes, in my book, do not include the Charles River-area canoes (and Monohon, Morris, etc.) that were built with shorter decks as Brad's has. Even so, these are beautiful canoes that were meant to be head-turners.
All of this is subjective, though. We have an early E.M. White that has 24" decks, and I sometimes refer to it as a "courting canoe", but that's because this is extremely unusual for a White. It has all-mahogany trim, wide beautifully-shaped thwarts, and one of the fanciest paint jobs White offered. Clearly this wasn't ordered as a typical guide canoe! We have another that is an extreme torpedo, has all mahogany trim, very wide thwarts, no seats (other than the thwarts), and a fancy paint job typical of the Charles River canoe culture. But because it has extremely short decks- beautifully-shaped but small triangular "caps"- we're just not sure what to call it. It's pretty spectacular, but doesn't fit my definition of a true courting canoe.
Hope all is well out there. We're still enjoying the Lakefield very much (you probably wouldn't know it but that's it in my avatar, on the St. Mark's River in northern FL with River serving as a Vanna White of the outdoors).
Michael
Generally, I call a courting canoe one with long decks- at least 36" but usually 48" or even more, and usually with some sort of fancy paint job. It may or may not be a "torpedo", and it would usually have mahogany trim (though makers of old and the few of today have made them with other trim materials, such as birdseye maple).
True courting canoes, in my book, do not include the Charles River-area canoes (and Monohon, Morris, etc.) that were built with shorter decks as Brad's has. Even so, these are beautiful canoes that were meant to be head-turners.
All of this is subjective, though. We have an early E.M. White that has 24" decks, and I sometimes refer to it as a "courting canoe", but that's because this is extremely unusual for a White. It has all-mahogany trim, wide beautifully-shaped thwarts, and one of the fanciest paint jobs White offered. Clearly this wasn't ordered as a typical guide canoe! We have another that is an extreme torpedo, has all mahogany trim, very wide thwarts, no seats (other than the thwarts), and a fancy paint job typical of the Charles River canoe culture. But because it has extremely short decks- beautifully-shaped but small triangular "caps"- we're just not sure what to call it. It's pretty spectacular, but doesn't fit my definition of a true courting canoe.
Hope all is well out there. We're still enjoying the Lakefield very much (you probably wouldn't know it but that's it in my avatar, on the St. Mark's River in northern FL with River serving as a Vanna White of the outdoors).
Michael
Dave Wermuth
Who hid my paddle?
wikipedia
My cursory search of wikipedia has no definition for Courting canoe that I can see.
Ken Kelly best describes it, maybe he'll chime in.
Basically, it is more stylish with upturned ends and long decks. Fancy paint. flags, phonographs, lights. Cushions. Most common in the Charles River area and also found around Belle Isle in Detroit. The long decks and lack of center thwart I suspect was an advantage for a young suitor to get closer to his captive intended.
My cursory search of wikipedia has no definition for Courting canoe that I can see.
Ken Kelly best describes it, maybe he'll chime in.
Basically, it is more stylish with upturned ends and long decks. Fancy paint. flags, phonographs, lights. Cushions. Most common in the Charles River area and also found around Belle Isle in Detroit. The long decks and lack of center thwart I suspect was an advantage for a young suitor to get closer to his captive intended.
Courting canoes
Thanks for the answers to my question. I am wondering how the seating arrangement comes into the definition? Old photos show the lovely lady sitting facing her suitor with the seat or forward thwart too close to the bow deck to allow paddling. Is the canoe still defined as a courting canoe with the forward seat set back so the lady can paddle with her back to her beau? Maybe this should be called an "after-courting"canoe. You have to pull your own weight now woman!
R.C.
Thanks for the answers to my question. I am wondering how the seating arrangement comes into the definition? Old photos show the lovely lady sitting facing her suitor with the seat or forward thwart too close to the bow deck to allow paddling. Is the canoe still defined as a courting canoe with the forward seat set back so the lady can paddle with her back to her beau? Maybe this should be called an "after-courting"canoe. You have to pull your own weight now woman!
R.C.
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
They don't necessarily have highly upturned ends. Some are fairly flat overall, either because there is very little rise to the gunwales at the ends and/or because the decking is raised amidships to the point that the kingplank is horizontal.
Many courting canoes had wide gunwales, sometimes built up with a triangular piece of wood on top of the section between decks to support a cap of mahogany that matched the angle of the decks (see "Bonita" in pics below, and the canoe on the left on the photo of three... this is Bonita's sister). Inside the gunwale was fitted a coaming that either encircled the cockpit (most common), or was flat against the gunwale between decks, and then followed a straight line to the peak of the deck, such that instead of the coaming at the decks forming a semicircle, it formed a triangle. Some courting canoes, however, were simpler, lacking the wider inwale and having a thin flat cap running the length of the canoe like other closed gunwale canoes (see drawing of red canoe below; one of our Arnold canoes and one of our either Robertson or Waltham canoes is built this way).
Paint jobs varied extremely widely, from simple stripes that followed the gunwale line to very fancy styles. Most commonly, the paint job was two-tone, with a solid body color, a wide stripe at the gunwales and following around the curve of the stem, the two separated by a thin stripe of gold (ofter gold leaf) edged in black. Often the gold stripe was highly decorative in the peaks at each end, and the canoe usually had a name (sometimes just letters such as "B-B"; red canoe detail below) in gold or gold leaf on each side of the bow.
Most, but not all, courting canoes had diamond-shaped flagstaff holders, one in each deck, and they supported a nickel-plated brass flagstaff, to which a pennant was attached (see Bonita photo below). These were fancy, probably made at home, and often displayed the name of the canoe.
The addition of a phonograph, pillows, etc. does not in itself make a courting canoe, though these and other items were often added on during the process of courting. In addition to these things, courting canoes were often outfitted with canopies or mosquito netting. These were generally aftermarket items (I've got an original package around here somewhere), and usually they were attached by several brass fittings screwed to the coaming's inner face along the gunwales, usually 3 per side (see detail photo below). Rarely, a canopy may have been attached via vertical rods as were the larger canopies of launches (such as Fay & Bowen), but more often, the canopy was supported by flat spring steels, one end slipped into a fitting on one side of the canoe, the spring steel bent into a semicircle, and the opposite end fitted into the clip on the opposite gunwale. Three of these spring steel hoops provided support for the canopy.
More than you wanted to know, perhaps, but...
M
Many courting canoes had wide gunwales, sometimes built up with a triangular piece of wood on top of the section between decks to support a cap of mahogany that matched the angle of the decks (see "Bonita" in pics below, and the canoe on the left on the photo of three... this is Bonita's sister). Inside the gunwale was fitted a coaming that either encircled the cockpit (most common), or was flat against the gunwale between decks, and then followed a straight line to the peak of the deck, such that instead of the coaming at the decks forming a semicircle, it formed a triangle. Some courting canoes, however, were simpler, lacking the wider inwale and having a thin flat cap running the length of the canoe like other closed gunwale canoes (see drawing of red canoe below; one of our Arnold canoes and one of our either Robertson or Waltham canoes is built this way).
Paint jobs varied extremely widely, from simple stripes that followed the gunwale line to very fancy styles. Most commonly, the paint job was two-tone, with a solid body color, a wide stripe at the gunwales and following around the curve of the stem, the two separated by a thin stripe of gold (ofter gold leaf) edged in black. Often the gold stripe was highly decorative in the peaks at each end, and the canoe usually had a name (sometimes just letters such as "B-B"; red canoe detail below) in gold or gold leaf on each side of the bow.
Most, but not all, courting canoes had diamond-shaped flagstaff holders, one in each deck, and they supported a nickel-plated brass flagstaff, to which a pennant was attached (see Bonita photo below). These were fancy, probably made at home, and often displayed the name of the canoe.
The addition of a phonograph, pillows, etc. does not in itself make a courting canoe, though these and other items were often added on during the process of courting. In addition to these things, courting canoes were often outfitted with canopies or mosquito netting. These were generally aftermarket items (I've got an original package around here somewhere), and usually they were attached by several brass fittings screwed to the coaming's inner face along the gunwales, usually 3 per side (see detail photo below). Rarely, a canopy may have been attached via vertical rods as were the larger canopies of launches (such as Fay & Bowen), but more often, the canopy was supported by flat spring steels, one end slipped into a fitting on one side of the canoe, the spring steel bent into a semicircle, and the opposite end fitted into the clip on the opposite gunwale. Three of these spring steel hoops provided support for the canopy.
More than you wanted to know, perhaps, but...
M
Attachments
Kingsbury
Brad:
Dave Kingsbury, son of the Kingsbury builder is still around these parts and could probably confirm its identity. I don't know how to reach him. Maybe some another forum member could put you in touch with him.
A Charles River canoe recently showed up in the WCHA classifieds (a few weeks ago). It was very similar to the canoe you have posted and it was identified by Dave as a Kingsbury.
Brad:
Dave Kingsbury, son of the Kingsbury builder is still around these parts and could probably confirm its identity. I don't know how to reach him. Maybe some another forum member could put you in touch with him.
A Charles River canoe recently showed up in the WCHA classifieds (a few weeks ago). It was very similar to the canoe you have posted and it was identified by Dave as a Kingsbury.
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
I should point out that the above is the definition of a long-decked wood-canvas courting canoe most popular on the Charles River around Boston and around Belle Isle in Detroit, made by a variety of Charles River-area builders and others including Kennebeck. A looser definition is that a courting canoe is a canoe used for courting. Various canoe types have been used for that purpose, and many types including standard Old Towns Otcas and HWs (among many other) have been outfitted with pillows, backrests, and all sorts of other accoutrements for the purposes of courting.
Not to slight those wonderful Canadian canoes! A famous courting or "girling" canoe is at the Canadian Canoe Museum in Peterborough. This Peterborough Comfort Craft is a spectacular all-wood (cedar strip) canoe with folding seats, a locker and cabinets, one of which holds a phonograph.
Not to slight those wonderful Canadian canoes! A famous courting or "girling" canoe is at the Canadian Canoe Museum in Peterborough. This Peterborough Comfort Craft is a spectacular all-wood (cedar strip) canoe with folding seats, a locker and cabinets, one of which holds a phonograph.
ken.kelly
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Bradford, this is a nice canoe. Looks like my 16' Kingsbury....see WCJ April 09, issue 152. I love these long nose torpedo recurves.
I think a courting canoe is most specifically defined by reducing capacity to 2 people. Like Michael says, that requires 36" or 48" decks. They really were unique to The Charles though a few were built by Maine companies. Belle Isle didn't have these two person only sized canoes. The big 18' Morris canoes with 24" and 36" decks could still easily hold four people.
I think a courting canoe is most specifically defined by reducing capacity to 2 people. Like Michael says, that requires 36" or 48" decks. They really were unique to The Charles though a few were built by Maine companies. Belle Isle didn't have these two person only sized canoes. The big 18' Morris canoes with 24" and 36" decks could still easily hold four people.
Attachments
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