What is the total number of wooden canoes that were made and how many still exist?

[Benson Gray]

I am occasionally asked "What is the total number of wooden canoes that were made and how many still exist?" but I've never had a good answer. Kathy's recent article in the Wooden Canoe Journal mentioned that there are a total of 335 Morris canoes in her database. This gave me an idea of how to come up with a better answer to the original questions as shown in the table below.

There are some records from the Old Town Canoe Company which indicate that the highest Morris serial number may be 17262. Kathy's total divided by this total produces a nearly 2% survival rate. It appears that Kathy has been building this database since around 2007. She will clearly find more over time but this gives a place to start. The Old Town, Carleton, and Kennebec records provide similar information about the total number of their canoes that were made. I have been answering build record requests for this information since 1996 and 2007 respectively so I have some similar survival rate numbers. The overall survival rate is about 3% based on this data.

There was a project many years ago to create a database listing all of the WCHA's members' canoes. The chart at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29887&d=1412107592 shows the distribution of the manufacturers in that collection of 1768 canoes. If we assume that this is a representative sample of the entire universe of wood canoes then it offers a chance to make some very rough estimates of the totals for the major builders as shown in the last column.

The bottom row shows that these totals divided by the 45% market share they represent produces an estimate that nearly three quarters of a million wood canoes were produced and that over twenty thousand of them may still exist today. Dan Miller has sent me his Rushton information, Dan Lindberg provided the Seliga, Pat Chapman provided the Willits, and I know that other people have been keeping records for additional manufacturers so it would be great if you can provide you own totals to further refine this information. Thanks,

Benson

 

[Old_Paddler]

I have reported my posts and asked they be removed.
I did not realize I was violating etiquette.
Sorry

 

[Dave Osborn]

Paddler,
I wasn't trying to scold you for posting an ad on the forum....
Lots of craigslist and EBay ads are posted...gets the word out!
Just thought it was odd that it was posted on this thread concerning the total number of wood canvas canoes that were produced and still exist. That's why I made the comment.
Seems that it should have been posted under a topic of Miscellaneous or Open Forum, or Wood Canvas Canoes....
Dave

 

[Kathryn Klos]

I've been meaning to get back to this thread (thanks, Benson, for working on this). One of the "Morris questions" has to do with the canoes Bert Morris was building in the 1930s. Given the fact that such a small percentage of the wood/canvas canoes by any builder still exist, it's possible none-- or only a handful-- of Bert's later canoes are around today. Some surprises still come out of hiding from time to time, however.

 

[Benson Gray]

Michael Grace and I recently exchanged some messages about the table above which highlighted an error that I just corrected. The earlier version had 253,998 as the total number of Old Town canoes since this was the highest serial number in the series of scanned records. This includes many boats, plastic watercraft, and other things than just wooden canoes. My estimate is that about 67% of the Old Town serial numbers below 200,000 were for wooden canoes. I applied this same percentage to the 7006 build records that I've researched in that range to come up with the 4175 shown above. This has raised the estimated Old Town survival rate percentage slightly and lowered the overall total for how many may have been made. These are all very rough numbers but should give an estimate within the correct order of magnitude. The same changes could be made for the other builders but my guess is that they all have much smaller percentages of boats in their totals. Let me know if you have questions, see another error, or want more details. Thanks,

Benson

 

[MGC]

I had forgotten about this thread so thanks for circling back to it.
My son always used to say, I don't know what I don't know and I always will. This reminds me of that.
I remember my first look at the Morris "database". I was a bit shocked to see what it contained, and even more so what it didn't. As I continued to locate Morris canoes, it occurred to me that for every canoe we knew of, there must be several more that we do not.
I suspect Dan would say the same about Rushton canoes and its derivatives. There are still less than a dozen SLBC canoes (I am aware of) and only the two known Browns, one, maybe two Wells.. There are probably more of them around than we have been able to document, and more to be found.
Whenever I run across one of these unicorns, I am often surprised by the owner's lack of awareness of these resources for help identifying, appraising, restoring what they have. More often than not, they are focused on getting rid of it, and often with unrealistic expectations.
Research could help them to develop a better appreciation, but it is rare to locate someone who will take the time to do more than a cursory investigation. I would wager that maybe one in 20 of the WCHA referrals I make ever find their way to this site.
What stands out (to me) is that despite the relative prominence of WCHA, there are still numbers of wooden canoe owners who are unaware of the WCHA. This is not meant to be a criticism, rather my way of suggesting that survival rates may be much better than what this table suggests. The numbers are still not very large, but I think they are better than what we know. The big yields of the 70's, 80's and 90's will not be repeated, but there are still boats to be found.
So, is it possible to conduct a wooden canoe census? I don't think it happens sitting next to the phone and waiting for it to ring. Is it worth pursuing and if yes, how? Our membership can be a starting point, but the way we went about it previously was probably less than ideal. Some people are (rightfully) cagey about their collections. No one wants to provide a collector or flipper with deep pockets a checklist, at least no one I know.

 

[Benson Gray]

is it possible to conduct a wooden canoe census?

A true census would not be easy. Many people don't even know that there is a canoe in the rafters of an old barn until the property is sold. There was an attempt to build a database of the WCHA members' canoes in the 1990s. The manufacturer's distribution for those 1768 canoes is shown below. There has been some talk about doing this again.

The true survival rates are clearly better than these numbers indicate, but they are probably not ten times better. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has a better idea of how to answer these questions.

Benson

 

[Todd F]

Just a thought...

As I read the posts above it made me think of Foxfire.org. Many of you have likely heard of this organization/effort starting in the 1960s. Instead of a single teacher trying to document local lore/history/reality of Appalachia, he relied on his students.

Instead of just the WCHA trying to find and document wood and canvas canoes why not partner with others? The first organization that came to mind was the Boy Scouts (I think they are just the Scouts now). The Scouts are a national organization, operate with common objectives, and have a background steeped in outdoor resiliency.

I think a pack of Scouts from a community would be welcome to canvas thier community for any and all old canoes for inclusion into an annual census. The pack with the highest number of "finds" could get an invite the the Assembly for recognition. It would also build a new generation that will appreciate what they are searching for. Not sure how something like that could be coordinated.

Just a thought...

 

[Todd F]

Looks like under the scouting,org umbrella is a seascout.org element. They might be convinced to create a badge for a heritage component etc.

I have no affiliation to either but thought it might be a venue to pursue.

 

[Rob Stevens]

The Three Rivers Chapter's latest newsletter includes a list by manufacturer of canoes owned by their members;
attached to this thread; https://forums.wcha.org/threads/april-newsletter-moraine-outing-april-30.20077/#post-106257

The idea of compiling anything comprehensive seems incredibly challenging. Not only are many wooden canoe owner not aware of the WCHA, many who are don't or won't join. Some participate locally at the Chapter level, but have no interest in the broader national or international scene. Writing from Ontario, Canada, I also think of the tens of thousands (highly speculative) canoes in boathouses, cottages and camps up here (many owned by Americans), manufactured by another long list of builders. I doubt that even the Canadian Canoe Museum has the resources to dedicate to such an undertaking.

 

[MGC]

A true census would not be easy. Many people don't even know that there is a canoe in the rafters of an old barn until the property is sold. There was an attempt to build a database of the WCHA members' canoes in the 1990s. The manufacturer's distribution for the 1768 canoes is shown below. There has been some talk about doing this again.

That is a fact. Even if there were a reliable way to ferret out the gross numbers canoes that are still unaccounted for, how would anyone be able to properly identify the makers? To much of the general public, a wooden canoe is an Old Town. Often that is true, but not always.
Parsing this challenge, the WCHA probably should at least have a handle on what is held by its membership. Then to expand upon that, what publications, social media platforms could be used to spread the story of a wooden canoe census? When you visit the CCM, or the ABM, is part of that experience informative of an effort to locate survivors? Obviously not, but maybe it should be. Where are those places that should be enrolled in such an effort? How can that effort be organized?
It's a daunting prospect. Suffice to say, when a Gerrish or a Durand owner says "its a rare canoe", truer words could not be spoken.