Varnish Questions?

dugkim

LOVES Wooden Canoes
While I haven't received my order of books yet, I can't help but meet out and process the information I have been getting from various sources. Mind if we talk varnish? I have read the article in this issue of Wooden Canoe, but have a third generation master boat restorer in the neighborhood who suggests a different method for the interior. It is:

1. clean with TSP and powerwash the boat to get as much of the finish
off as possible;
2. strip the remaining old finish, if any;
3. obviously let dry;
4. sand with 60 grit and then 100 grit (do NOT use 220 grit) - he had
a whole host of reasons for this, including absorbtion
5. apply one coat of clear wood sealer, let dry and sand;
6. apply second coat of clear wood sealer, let dry sand;
7. apply first coat of Pettit Spar Varnish, not reduced at all, let
dry and sand
8. apply second coast of Pettit Spar Varnish, also not reduced, let
dry and sand
9. apply first (and potentially final) coat of Pettit-Hi-Build, let
dry and sand
10. optional additional coat of Hi-build

What do you guys think of this method?
 
Okay, here goes a stab at this.

First, consider carefully the plan to power wash. People do a lot of things to wood to get an old finish off- sandblasting, shell blasting, scraping, heat guns, grinding, wire brushing, and power washing, for examples. Each can cause big problems. Blasting, grinding, and wire brushing will rapidly eat away at softwoods like cedar. Heat guns work, but you have to be very judicious in application to prevent burning of the wood. Scraping also works, wield the scraper careully- as with blasting, grinding etc., you can quickly create a topographic landscape that will require a compass to navigate. So, now to power washing- if you've never done it, give it a whirl, but wear shoes or boots because you can easily cut right to the bone. In fact, it's pretty easy to remove a layer of concrete with a power washer. So what will it do to soft thin cedar planks attached attached to cedar ribs by thin brass tacks? To borrow a poetic line from MC 900-Foot Jesus, "Somethin's gonna happen and it's probably not good!"

Oh, the TSP- why even begin with a detergent when power washing will go right through the finish and the wood?

About sandpaper, 100 grit isn't fine enough for a quality finish. On the other end of the abrasive spectrum, you can over-sand wood to the point of polishing it with very high grit numbers. Polishing interferes with finish adhesion, but 220 will not polish, and does leave a surface that takes varish well.

Finally, the finish itself... Your aquantance recommends 3 different products it seems, when only one is really necessary. Thinned varnish makes an excellent first coat, and is an effective (and often used) sealer. As a sealer under varnish, there can be none better because subsequent coats of varnish are going to adhere best to earlier coats of the same material. Any good marine spar varnish is great for finishing. The advocacy of a Hi-Build-type product comes from the desire to build a thick coat fast, but most high quality restoration is done with multiple coats of good spar varnish rather than searching out a product that goes on thick and fast like the top coat and the talk at a Hooters bar.

You didn't mention stain, which in this humble opinion is a good thing (not mentioning it, that is). Stains often get slathered over beautiful wooden boats, muddying what otherwise would be a beautiful study in the natural richness of wood. Don't even get me started on those filler stains- yuk! These are the heavy colored fillers often globbed onto runabouts and other boats to reduce the tedium of filling pores in open-grained woods like mahogany. If not done VERY well, it is very obvious. I just scoured this pigmented nightmare out of some old mahogany to find absolutely exquisite wood underneath. It seems near blasphemy to treat wood so. The horror!

So, one working formula:

- strip, clean with TSP, treat w/2-part teak cleaner/brightener
- apply thinned high-quality spar varnish, working from more to less thinned through subsequent coats (start 50/50, gradually work to more concentrated, sanding lightly between coats).
- 3-4 coats serviceable, 8-10 or more coats for fine work

More details if desired.

For an excellent treatment of wood finishing by a true expert, see Rebecca Whitman's book entitled "Brightwork". Reviews:

Classic Boating : ``Everyone who does varnishing should have this book!--Wittman does an outstanding job of educating in all there is to know about this critical stage of boat restoration--A superb book I highly recommend.''
Sail : ``It's elegant--elegant as the work it describes so successfully, elegant in its writing, elegant in its photography.''
Sailing : ``Packed with useful information for both amateur and professional refinsishes alike--A first class and highly readable text that should be mandatory reading for anyone who owns or is contemplating owning a wood-trimmed vessel--The book's only drawback is that it's so beautiflly illustrated that you'll need to buy a second copy to replace the one assigned to your cofee table.''
 
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Ditto Mr. Grace.

Ans you can damage the planking with a powerwasher - the soft wood between the grain gets damaged and reflects light in a different angle causing a strange look. Fortunately I had this happen in only a couple of spots but it is cleary power washer related. On the other hand, I don't know how I would have gotten the old varnish and Methylene Chloride out without a power washer - be careful.

Spar varnish is the way to go and I have used both Interlux #90 and McCloskys Man'O war with excellent results. I agree also that 100 grit is not a fine enough surface.

Just my novice 2 cents
 
Hi Eric,

In answer to how to get the gunk out, attached are some photos of a mid-teens canoe in the process of being stripped.

Added photo of first round of stripping to the series- last photo below. You can see that one round of stripping doesn't remove nearly all of the varnish (under deck, as well as deck and gunwales not yet stripped).

First photo is after treating with methylene chloride-based stripper twice- first major sludge removed with smooth strokes of a putty knife (Ms. Whitman would be offended that hard metal touched soft wood at all!). Second coat washed off with soft bristle brush and high concentration of TSP in warm water. What's left is a fair amount of residual goo.

The boat was then treated with 2-part teak cleaner/brightener to yeild results in second photo- clean!

After sanding, canoe looks really bright, but the first coat of thinned 50/50 varnish (Epifanes Gloss in this case) brings back wonderful color and patina.
 

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Having personally witnessed Dr. Grace's collection of fine canoe (not withstanding the beauty in a previous issue of Wooden Canoe), I'd take his advice seriously!

Of course, this is one of the most oft debated topics in restoration!:confused:
 
Any pictures of the finished product?

I really appreciate and value your opinion (and this forum's) suggestions. I have used a power washer a number of times and have multiple tips for psi and width control. Obviously, I will start and continue very cautiously. TSP will loosen the stuff before I power wash and will allow me to go more delicately. Every step after that is up for further discussion. Keep them coming...
 
Good morning!. Are we talking about a piano,.. a bookshelf,..or a canoe. I am from up north and my canoe goes out in the wilderness, paddling and poling up and down the rivers and lakes with canvas packs full of it! It is my workhorse. I beleive 100 grit sandpaper finish is more than good enough.
Have a nice day.

Sandpiper
 
Let me add to this also...

sandpiper said:
Good morning!. Are we talking about a piano,.. a bookshelf,..or a canoe. I am from up north and my canoe goes out in the wilderness, paddling and poling up and down the rivers and lakes with canvas packs full of it! It is my workhorse. I beleive 100 grit sandpaper finish is more than good enough.
Have a nice day.

Sandpiper


The 60 and 100 grit method was used refinishing Century boats that had mirror-like finishes and TONS of depth. They looked amazing.
 
Please don't be offended. Our canoes are ours, and we can each refinish as we like. We can put on 30 coats of marine spar with a 1/8" camel hair brush if we wish, or we can sand with 30-grit and apply roofing tar. If 100-grit is enough for you, then use it. It should be noted that even on very fine examples of old wooden canoes, original varnish was often very thin and was certainly not of today's quality.

In my humble and very personal opinion, spending many hours refurbishing an old canoe is worth the extra effort of sanding to a finer level, and worth applying multiple coats of high-quality varnish. But then most of the work I do is not on workhorse boats; if it were, I would likely spend far less time and energy, produce a perfectly serviceable product, and be very happy with that product. Still, the canoes I use on a daily basis get nearly the same care and attention to detail as the finest ones, simply because attention to detail means a better product, which in turns means longer and more functional life of the product. And let's not forget beauty- in addition to their functional qualities, wooden canoes are beautiful; why not work to make the beauty come through as much as each of us desires in our own canoes? Sandpiper asks "Are we talking about a piano?" In my (again very personal) opinion, an old wooden canoe is much finer than a piano! My pianist friends, however, may see these old canoes as little more that fancied-up firewood.

As Mike pointed out, there are many opinions on re-building, restoring, refinishing, or whatever, and there are just as many methods of work. Dugkim's "What do you guys think of this method?" seemed to be a request for opinions. One was given.
 
A request for opinions it is...

No offense taken here. And absolutely I would like all the opinions that I can get...afterall better to ask now, then regret later!:rolleyes:
 
I did express like a feeling. I respect what Michael Grace just wrote. My intention wasn't to hurt any feelings. Best regards to everyone.

Sandpiper
 
Well ya know.....To sit directly on the fence.
All w/c canoes, even ones that were intended to be workhorses all started out a thing of beauty.Correct me if Im wrong.
 
Good morning. Well DBoles, you are not wrong. And I always spend a lot of time being lost in the contemplation of the W/C canoe lines. And I like it so much. Concerning the guy sitting on the fence,... well!..., it could be a good medium, not always confortable! But, come to think of it, I ain't always according to the book!
Yellow cedar!! I like yellow cedar. I built a canoe one time with yellow cedar. Tough on the saw blade. It is a tough cookie!!
So, have a nice spring time. Expecting the flowers as soon as possible! We are still on the minus side. Of course, the flowers must be sticking out at this time of the year in B.C. Hope you enjoy it.

Sandpiper,.....down east, near the other pond
 
Sunday morning,... I like it!!:) You know, it is "sugar time". I mean Maple syrup in my area. The birds are coming back from down south. Soon the canoe will be going out. Have a nice day.

Sandpiper
 
What Mike said.

I'd be a bit carefull with the 60 grit, can leave some deep grooves, I usually finish with 120 grit, a nice compromise between rough and fine. I use either 220 or scotch brite on the varnish coats.

But I haven't yet done any projects as nice as Mike's.

Dan
 
Added new photo to post above showing stripping series (no, not THAT kind of stripping!). Some wanted to see what the canoe looked like with its old worn clothes still on.
 
Question...

Michael Grace said:
The boat was then treated with 2-part teak cleaner/brightener to yeild results in second photo- clean!

Is the 2-part teak cleaner the same as the 2-part wood bleach process? Is it the same stuff?
 
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