Trying to ID wood and canvas canoe

[Acushnet]

I am trying to ID an wood/canvas canoe
Here is what I know about it.
I have a bill of sale from 1900 on US Post Office stationary which appears to be a resale.
The serial number is 19589 17, which looks to be an Old Town number but for a later production date, like 1911.
It's painted a medium blue, it has been in storage since 1940.
Condition is excellent except for some of the paint chipping off the canvas, but the canvas itself in excellent.
I have a photo album showing the canoe in service on vintage hunting trips.
The original owner is semi famous, more noteworthy.

Trying to attach photos, but its giving me an error code,the photos are 240 pix wide 20kb sized which should fit no problem, anybody have any ideas?

 

[MikeCav]

If you are reading the length correctly, this is probably not your canoe. In the Old Town records, 19589 is on a 18' AA grade Charles River, not a 17' boat. It has mahogany seats, deck and rails, a keel, floor rack and outside stems. It was painted Yale Blue (which is a medium blue)with a 1/2" gold stripe and turned down ends. It was shipped to Fitchburg Mass in 1913. Record is attached.

The Carleton of that number IS a 17'er with Mahogany seats, decks, thwarts, rails, a floot rack, outside stems and sponsons. It was painted dark green and had a painter ring in the stem. It was shipped to Baltimore MD in 1927. Look for screw holes in the ribs - sponsons were often removed in later restorations. Record is attached.

Scans of approximately 210,000 records were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. Additional information about the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/records/ if you want more details. Please join WCHA or make a tax deductable contribution so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA, http://www.wcha.org/wcha_video.php to watch a 10 minute video about WCHA and our programs and http://www.wcha.org/join.html to join. If you are already a WCHA member, THANK YOU!

It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Acushnet--

Dan Miller's article in the December 2007 issue of Wooden Canoe describes several canoe builders that used a serial number scheme similar to Old Town's. I'll list them, in case you don't have that issue. In addition to Old Town and Carleton, they include Kennebec, Skowhegan, St. Louis Meramec/St. Louis Boat and Canoe, Detroit, Morris, Rushton, White, Chestnut, Walter Dean, Willits Bros, and the Charles River Builders.

Pictures of your canoe would be great-- it helps us learn!

I don't have a picture program that lets me reduce the size, so when I want to post a picture here, I email it to myself-- I right-click on the picture and Outlook Express sends it in a reduced size, and I put it on my desktop where I can find it easily and delete it after attaching to the post. May seem rather complicated, but it works for me!

Kathy

 

[Acushnet]

Photos

Thanks for your quick responses
Here are some photos

 

[Acushnet]

More Detailed Photos

Maybe these help more

 

[Acushnet]

Serial Number

I double checked the serial number at the other end of the canoe.
The first one I looked at was damaged.
Looks clearly like 19569

 

[Douglas Ingram]

Regardless of its make, it appears to be in excellent condition.

 

[MikeCav]

Well, lets try 19569...

19569 was assigned to a 17' Otca in CS grade with long Ash decks, seats and thwarts. It had spruce rails and was painted NH (New Haven?) Green. It was shipped to NYC (Macy's) in February 1912.

From the photos - looks like you got it. The deck is Otca long deck style, and the diamond head bolt are typical of Old Town, but later date than this record.

A few caveats - The combing on the deck looks a little squarish and the ribs do not seem to have much taper - could be camera angle. There is no reference to the painter ring in the build record - could have been added later. The diamond head bolts could have been added to a later restoration, though much seems original. It is possible that the inside wood had been painted, as evidenced by the remains of blue between the ribs in one of your close up shots.

I can't comment on your reciept from 1900 - a different canoe possibly?

 

[Acushnet]

Refinishing

I have that US Post Office bill of sale dated April 14, 1900, sold for $25.
I was told that the document was for this canoe, but who knows? There is no serial number on it.

What's the best way to handle refinishing the exterior paint?
Does the canvas need to be replaced? It's in really good shape

If it needs to have the canvas replaced can you recommend anyone in the North East (I'm in NJ).

Thanks for all the help

 

[Acushnet]

The blue paint chips in the bottom are from paint falling off the outside.

I don't think that the inside has been touched other then a fresh coat of varnish over the years.

 

[MikeCav]

What's the best way to handle refinishing the exterior paint?
Does the canvas need to be replaced? It's in really good shape

Can't tell from photos if the canvas needs replacement. One thing to do is check it completely for tears, puckering at the stems or pulling from the gunwales. If it is sound, then you should be able to repaint. It may not be original, since +/- 90 year old canvas in that good shape would be unusual (not unheard of, though) The fact that the paint is flaking off the filler is a bit unusual, though.

Another look at your photos (the one showing the rear seat) shows the combing looking a bit more rounded and fitting into the inwale like an Otca.

 

[Michael Grace]

Acushnet,

Your photos are too small to make out that 4th digit, but the canoe does appear to match much of the build record that Mike posted for you (it sure looks like an early Otca in CS grade). There are some interesting features as well as some differences from the build record, however, that tell some history about your canoe. Not only is your canoe an Otca, but it is early. The chamfered inwales (and outwales at least on some canoes) are characteristic of Old Town canoes prior to 1920 or so. Not sure whether un-chamfered outwales are original.

Such early Old Towns would also lack diamond-head bolts (these were developed later). Your forward thwart appears NOT to have diamond-head bolts, but maybe countersink and bunged fasteners. This would be usual for an Old Town of about 1912. The seats, however, do have diamond-head bolts, and the bow seat is a replacement. Notice that it has splined pre-woven cane (much more recent), while the stern seat has hand-woven cane, typical of pre-WWII canoes.

Finally, the first two old photos you posted do not appear to be your canoe... maybe this is the "Post Office 1900 canoe". The canoe in the photos looks much like an E.M. White or similar. The other old photo with the motor mounted certaily could be your Otca, but the angle makes it difficult to tell. In any case, it has the profile of an Old Town.

In any case, it is in very good condition. Should be an enjoyable canoe.

Michael

 

[dcp740i]

Otca-lutely

Those decks sure do look like OTCA decks!

No doubt someone will correct me here if I'm wrong, but isn't 1900 the "closed-gunwale era," while this canoe has open gunwales, discrediting the bill of sale?

Hmm.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Open Gunwales

I think you're right, dcp.

In looking over the catalogs, I don't see open gunwales on an Old Town until the 1906 "Ideal" (which is an AA grade Charles River with open gunwales, half-ribs, and a keel). The Otca appears in 1908, sporting open gunwales, and appears to be the first time a CS grade canoe was offered with open wales.

In 1900, I believe the Old Town Company called itself "The Indian Old Town Canoe Company". The catalog collection I have doesn't go back farther than 1901.

I'll attach a picture of the Otca from the 1912 catalog.