Pre 1905 Old Town Molitor canoe

[Charles I. Francis]

I have an Old Town Molitor model canoe that I was given in the middle 1950’s. It had some problems: one or two broken ribs that caused a slight bulge in the bottom; damage to the attachment of the ribs to the foredeck causing two or three ribs to not be secured; the canvas was in very bad shape; the varnish was really thick and black; and the gunwale caps, stem and keel were very beat up.

In my teen age ignorance, I repaired the canoe as follows: I removed the canvass, striped all the varnish and re varnished the interior; I fastened a mahogany block under the foredeck and reattached the ribs; and I fiber-glassed the canoe (amateur job.

In 1964, I brought the canoe to the Old Town factory to have new mahogany gunwale caps, new white oak stems and keel, and brass half-round on the fore and aft stems, a new caned seat and new thwarts. A Mr. Gray, who I believe was president of Old Town, came down to meet me on Memorial Day weekend to let me drop off the canoe. He took one look at it and said he thought they still they had the frames for this model up in the attic. He took me inside the office and looked in their records. He said they did not start keeping records until serial number 1000, which was in 1905. The serial number of my canoe is 560! And he showed me several old catalogs from the 1920’s or 1930’s of the Molitor model, most with Indian motif decoration as I recall.

They made the repairs, I retrieved the canoe, and I still have it but it has seen very little use since, always stored inside in very dry conditions.

A few years after my 1964 visit, Old Town began making the Molitor model again. I have always thought my canoe was the impetus for the model’s revival.

One possible discrepancy: My canoe is 16 ft. The keel is embossed “560 16.” Old Town’s revived Molitor model was 17 feet long. I suppose it’s possible my canoe was made by someone other than Old Town. I know the canoe was one of several of the same model originally owned by YMCA Camp MI-TE-NA in Alton, New Hampshire.

Can this canoe be stripped of the fiberglass and restored? How much would it cost to do that, or how much is it worth to someone that would do that?

Thank you.

Charles I. Francis

 

[Benson Gray]

Can this canoe be stripped of the fiberglass and restored? How much would it cost to do that, or how much is it worth to someone that would do that?

The short answer is yes, the fiberglass can be stripped and your canoe can be restored. It is usually a very difficult and nasty job so the cost is likely to be several thousand dollars. This is likely to exceed the market value of the canoe as described at the first link below. It still might be worth doing for sentimental value. The factory repair records for your canoe are attached below. The second link below may help you find a local restorer to give you a more detailed estimate of the price to restore it.

Your canoe was the impetus for the revival of the Old Town Molitor model. A lot of new information about Molitors has been uncovered since the 1960s. It is not likely that your canoe is an Old Town or a Molitor. Several other builders from the Charles River area made canoes like yours so it is probably from one of them. Let me know if you want more details. Please keep us posted on what you decide to do with this canoe. Good luck with the decision,

Benson

How much is my old wooden canoe worth?

How much is my old canoe worth? One of the most common questions that gets sent to the WCHA webmasters is "how much is my old canoe worth?" Tim Hewitt's responses over the years have included the following comments: Any wooden or wood/canvas canoe in usable condition is worth $1000 - $1500. A...

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BuildersSuppliers

www.woodencanoe.org

 

[Michael Grace]

I agree with Benson that it is highly unlikely that you canoe is a Molitor or an Old Town (certainly not a 1905 OT Molitor), and that instead it is likely from one of the Charles River-area builders near Boston. The Molitor name comes from Charles J. Molitor who in 1911 began operating a livery at Belle Isle, Michigan. To support his business, he had an unusual and stylish canoe model built by B.N. Morris until the Morris factory was razed in 1919, and afterward Old Town began making similar canoes that they called the Molitor.

In addition to the timeline not matching up, several features of your canoe are distinct from early Molitors, and very much like those of canoes from Charles River area. These include the stem profile, the deck style, the shape of the thwart shown in your images, and what appears to be a chamfer on each side of the stem. In addition, the serial number doesn't fit with those from Old Town in either 1905 (too low) or the 20s when the Molitor was made (far too low). The serial number is consistent, however, with those from a number of known Charles River-area builders.

This is a typical early OT Molitor that has many features that are distinct from your canoe's:

The thread that discusses this one is here:

Michigan Chapter

The Michigan Chapter has located a 1921 Old Town 18ft Molitor Canoe. The canoe was built for CJ Molitor of the Molitor Canoe Liveries on Belle Isle located on the Detroit River. Old Town made the canoe to the Morris specs for which Old Town later named the canoe model for. The Michigan...

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This is a typical modern Molitor:

And the thread that discusses it is here:

Newer glassed Molitor

Hi Benson, I know this canoe is a more current model and not on the serial number disks but was hoping I could find out a build date. It's a glassed 17' Molitor ser#: XIC36797M81H. This is on a tag under the gunwale near the bow. The second letter could be something other than and "I"...

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And here is a thread discussing one of a variety of Charles River-area canoes:

Help with ID - Charles River Courting Canoe?

The Calvert Marine Museum / Patuxent Small Craft Guild recently received this canoe. We're looking for any information that can help us identify and value it. We've done many boat restorations here including several wood and canvas canoes but will likely try to sell this canoe as is to someone...

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This one shares some but not all features with your canoe. The builders along the Charles produced a variety of different canoe styles with short decks, long decks, and extremely long decks. They produced canoes with circular stem profiles, slight torpedo shaped stems, and extreme torpedo-shaped stems (yours is the latter). Note the serial number in this canoe.

Don't despair that your canoe doesn't appear to be a Molitor. Canoes like yours are very much appreciated by many. That torpedo stem, those beautiful thwarts, the tumblehome - these are canoes that were designed for high style at the time, and lots of people still covet them today. You should be pleased to have it. I'd guess yours is from the 20s or 30s. I'm not sure Benson actually meant to say "Your canoe was the impetus for the revival of the Old Town Molitor model" unless he is aware of some information that this particular canoe (this very one) is mentioned as such in Old Town historical documents. If it is, that would be very interesting.

Hope this is helpful,
Michael

 

[floydvoid]

Charles, are you still in Wethersfield? I’m up in Simsbury if you need some recanvas help.
-Ryan

 

[MGC]

Presumably Benson meant to say that "your canoe was not the impetus for the revival of the Old Town Molitor model." That was the way I chose to read it. Even Benson can occasionally fat finger a comment.
I agree with everything said about the maker of this canoe. It is almost without question from one of the Charles River builders.
In the 60's, there was far less information available about that build community and much less general knowledge about them available. Old Town was the most recognized manufacturer. At the time, unless an canoe had a clearly marked tag from another shop, most wood and canvas canoes were attributed to them.
WRT glass removal, it is a major pain in the rear end. But, it does not require special tools, skills, knowledge. It can be done with a bit of bull-headed determination, a heat gun, good putty knife and some patience. What takes time (on one canoe I spent nearly 100 hours at it) is picking out resin that has flowed in between the planking, behind the ribs and into the nail head puckers. If you aren't fussy, you can simply remove the glass and leave some of the detritus chalking it off as fairing. If you are fussy.....you can drive yourself crazy.
The single caution is to try and avoid the temptation to pull off really big sheets without properly heating the resin first. It is easy to damage the soft cedar planking.
In that your canoe was in great condition when it was covered, it is probably worth the effort to properly restore it. Many canoes are glassed after there is wood rot or wear. These problems show up after the glass is removed. That will not happen with your canoe. I'd go for it if it was mine and the only one I was expecting to do.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

Is anyone else thinking Kingsbury?

 

[Benson Gray]

Even Benson can occasionally fat finger a comment.

I do mess up regularly but that was not a mistake. My understanding is that this canoe attracted enough attention during the repair that the company decided to bring back the Molitor model in 1965. The first link below has more about that story and my unsuccessful search for this canoe a few years ago. There is a great deal of other background information about the Molitor models in that thread as well.

I agree with everyone's other comments in this thread. My only minor clarifiction is with Michael's comment that "unless I'm mistaken, all known OT Molitors were 17' long." This is true for all of the modern Molitors built after 1965. The earlier ones came in a variety of lengths. The second link below shows an 18 foot long Molitor from the first batch that were made in 1921.

Benson

1921 Old Town Molitor

I've just completed restoring this 18' Old Town Molitor made in 1921, serial # 66010-18. It's AA Grade with all original mahogany inner & outer rails, seats, decks, and thwarts. It also has the original external stems and keel. The tops of the seat & thwart bolts are covered with mahogany...

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AA grade Old Town Molitor model in original condition from 1921

This is an AA grade Old Town Molitor model in original condition from 1921. It has closed gunwales and pocked ribs like a Morris.

forums.wcha.org

 

[Benson Gray]

Is anyone else thinking Kingsbury?

Yes, or a Robertson. Some good pictures showing the ends of the inside stems might help distinguish between these possibilities.

Benson

 

[MGC]

I do mess up regularly but that was not a mistake. My understanding is that this canoe attracted enough attention during the repair that the company decided to bring back the Molitor model in 1965.

That is a pretty interesting story.
I remember seeing a Molitor under construction when we visited the factory in 1966/67 ish. I wanted to own one from that moment on. They were always a bit out of my reach though. I was affording 15/25$ canoes, not boats that cost many hundreds of dollars.

 

[Benson Gray]

I was affording 15/25$ canoes, not boats that cost many hundreds of dollars.

A young business student asked the manager of Old Town in the 1970s why he contined to list the Molitor in the catalogs when it was so expensive and they sold so few of them. He responded saying that "some people like to buy a Lamborghini." It is still available today as shown at https://www.islandfallscanoe.com/old-town-canoes.aspx from Island Falls Canoe.

Benson

 

[Gil Cramer]

Great, well written responses. Interesting that this was the impetus for the revival of the Molitor .

 

[Gil Cramer]

Most early Molitors were 18' long, with long decks, pocketed ribs, rub rails, and outside stems. Some had bilge keels as I recall because they were going to be pulled onto the dock at Belle Isle. The stem profiles were similar to Old Town and Carleton canoes. One exception that I can remember was a 17' er with a Morris stem profile built sometime in the early 1920's. It clearly had written on the hull planking "go down to Old T". Evidently, it was not canvassed before it was sent to Old Town.

 

[Michael Grace]

Oh yes, my mistake - I had the later 17' Molitors in mind when I wrote that, but most early ones seem to be 18' (including the one I posted above discussed by the Michigan chapter - an 18' model). I fixed my mistake above so it wouldn't perpetuate misinformation.

To add to your observations, Gil, I have a 17' canoe that has the features of a Molitor - the distinct stem profile, deck style and lengths, etc. It was given a serial number that corresponds to the timeframe of early OT Molitors, but then it was re-stamped with a Carleton number and sold as a Carleton Indian Princess, which looks nothing like a Molitor.

About the impetus for the modern OT Molitor, I'm excited to hear that your comment, Benson, was meant as written. This is a very interesting story. Iss there any more to it than a word-of-mouth tale from the past? Tales sometimes turn out to be true, and it would be fascinating if it is documented somewhere that Charles' #560 is the basis for the new Molitor. If so, Charles, you know you're going to hav veto go out and get yourself a 1965 Molitor!

It is interesting that the folks at Old Town seemed to think #560 was an early Molitor when it was brought in for repair (at least they called it a Molitor on the repair card). Had this part of the company's own history been obscured to them by the mid-1960s?

 

[Gil Cramer]

The brown Molitor with Russ Hicks and the owner was what started the quest to find the first Molitor. It is the second lowest Molitor numbered Old Town. Thanks to Benson, Dave Baker, Dennis Kallery, and Kathryn Klos much info has been uncovered. Kathryn did an excellent job of writing the story in her book on the Morris canoe.

 

[Benson Gray]

About the impetus for the modern OT Molitor, I'm excited to hear that your comment, Benson, was meant as written. This is a very interesting story. Iss there any more to it than a word-of-mouth tale from the past? Tales sometimes turn out to be true, and it would be fascinating if it is documented somewhere that Charles' #560 is the basis for the new Molitor. If so, Charles, you know you're going to hav veto go out and get yourself a 1965 Molitor!

It is interesting that the folks at Old Town seemed to think #560 was an early Molitor when it was brought in for repair (at least they called it a Molitor on the repair card). Had this part of the company's own history been obscured to them by the mid-1960s?

The story about the impetus for the modern Molitor is a word-of-mouth tale that was told to me by Deane Gray who met Charles Francis on Memorial Day in 1964 and who made the decision to recreate the Molitor. He is also the source of the story about the original torpedo ended canoes originating from racing in the Charles River area. The idea was that this was a quick and easy way to make longer and narrower canoe (which would be faster) without building a completely new form. The quote above comparing the Molitor to a Lamborghini is also his. I'm not aware of any documentation available to confirm all of this but it seems plausable.

Deane is also likely to be the person who thought that #560 might have been an early Molitor. He was born in 1920 so was probably remembering another word-of-mouth story. He may not have realized that Molitor model canoes did not exist before 1905.

A huge amount of new information about the Molitor models has come available in the last 25 years. Gil Cramer deserves a great deal of credit for getting this all started in the late 1990s. It would probably be worth gathering everything that has been discovered in one place sometime so we can clearly see what holes remain for future research.

Benson

 

[Michael Grace]

Very interesting stuff!

 

[Charles I. Francis]

Thanks to all for responding to my inquiry and making this thread. And I apologize for taking so long to reply. I seem to have struck the mother lode here – more than I had hoped for. I am astonished to have received such responsive replies, and within a few hours of my post. I especially thank Benson Gray, who confirms that my advanced age has not yet caused serious damage to my memory. Amazing to find the actual work order and billed amount for the 1964 work on our canoe.

Based on your responses, I don’t have an Old Town canoe or a Molitor canoe, and it’s probably not of pre-1905 vintage, but it’s an interesting one never-the-less. Should I rename this thread? Can that be done?

I guess I don’t understand what defines a Molitor model. I thought it referred to a canoe style with the long, swept back bow and stern that our canoe has, apparently more correctly called a torpedo shape. I have an Old Town Catalog from about some years ago, and it shows the Molitor model being just like ours. And I recall (hopefully still accurately) that the old catalogs Mr. Gray showed me in 1964 called that style Molitor. So when Michael Grace says I don’t have a Molitor, does he mean that because I don’t have an Old Town canoe? Is Molitor a name used only by Old Town? I’m not sure I knew anything about Molitors until I brought the canoe to Old Town and was shown the old catalog. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be surprised if I had done some research, even looking at 1960’s Old Town catalogs showing Molitors and assumed that is what my canoe was. Is there some confusion between canoes made by Charles J. Molitor as opposed to what I assume must have been his design but made by others? Again, does only Old Town call this shape Molitor?

Now that I have been clued in that I don’t have an Old Town Molitor, I started doing some basic research, and I think I may have a Kingsbury! On The Wooden Canoe Museum website (https://woodencanoemuseum.org/), under the “Deck Shape” tab, you will find a photo of a Kingsbury deck that is nearly identical to that of our canoe. A picture of the deck of our canoe is shown below.

Further, on the WCHA website under the classified ads, there is a 16 ft. Kingsbury Courting Canoe for sale, offered by Steve Lapey of Groveland Massachusetts (978-374-1104) at an asking price of $5,000. If you scroll down to look at the second picture, you will see it is the EXACT shape of our canoe! And, of course, it is also 16 feet. Our canoe is plain Jane compared to his version that is fancied up to Courting Canoe status, but the similarity is unmistakable.

To top it off, Mr. Lapey states his canoe is of 1920’s vintage with a serial number of 692. So our canoe with a serial number of 560 is somewhat older that his. Would the font style of the serial and length numbers stamped into the inside stem be a significant indicator of the manufacturer?

So are all of you in general agreement that our canoe is a Kingsbury?

My recollection is that at the time Camp Mi-Te-Na got rid of this canoe, another one I am sure was identical to mine and just as beat up went to a boy or young man named Curt or Kurt who lived in New Hampshire. I know nothing more than that. I will try to see if Camp Mi-Te-Na has any records of acquiring canoes in the 1930s or before – I’m not hopeful. If there are any records from Kingsbury or other Charles River builders, one should look for the Manchester N. H. YMCA or the Granite State YMCA. Builders from far away places (Michigan, etc.) would not seem likely. The camp’s first operating season was 1913.

Re Ryan’s (Floydvoid) question, we now live in Berkshire County, Massachusetts, about an hour from Simsbury. We know Simsbury. We go to Avon a few times a year. We love Russell Speedy’s.

And finally, is our canoe worth more as a Kingsbury than it would have been as an Old Town?

Thank you to everyone for your interest and help. I look forward to your responses to my Kingsbury assumption.

 

[Charles I. Francis]

Here is another link to a story about a Kingsbury canoe that seems to be a perfect match for our canoe (https://www.vintagetrailercamp.com/1917-kingsbury-canoe). The article states the canoe is a 1917 Kingsbury with a serial number of 592 16. As our canoe s/n is 560, that makes our canoe to be 1917 or 1016. That comports with the Camp Mi-Te-Na ownership of our canoe. Note the pictures. Of course, all this is dependent on the statements in these articles being factual, and that the canoes actually are Kingsbury units.

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Charles,

It's great that you are so excited about your canoe and its history. The canoe is a nice one regardless of its connection to Old Town, and that connection makes it even more exciting. Charles River-area canoes have wonderful style, and the torpedo models like yours are very distinctive.

You are correct above that "Molitor" referred to an Old Town canoe model - two distinct ones, actually, distinct in form and time. The general term for cedar-canvas canoes with the long nose because of a highly recurved stem is "torpedo." As above, B.N. Morris built canoes for C.J. Molitor and then Old Town did. Even though they never appeared in catalogs, sometimes Old Town sold these canoes to other customers; if you search for them here, you will find build records that state "Molitor" as the model. And those canoes did not have the strongly recurved stem that yours does. In the mid-1960s, Old Town reintroduced the Molitor, apparently based upon conversations that followed work on your canoe, but this time they listed it in catalogs and named it the Molitor model.

As for relative value, that's a tough one. Value can mean the price that people are willing to pay; alternatively, value can mean what an owner values something, regardless of what someone else will pay. Perception of value to an owner can vary wildly - just look at our recent classified ads for some examples. What would someone pay? It depends on many factors. The Old Town name adds value because it is well known, but many Old Town models are not particularly rare. Yours is more uncommon than most Old Towns, which may add value in the eyes of many knowledgeable people, but Kingsbury name recognition is extremely low relative to that of Old Town. The best way to assess value is to look at sales of comparable canoes, and a number of similar canoes have changed hands in recent years. Again, though, yours may well have added value to canoe history buffs given that it appears to have led to the resurrection of the Molitor name and the production of a canoe (the modern Old Town Molitor) that some people find wonderful.

Your canoe has "Molitor" in the Model section of the repair record; I can only imagine that this was a (mistaken) supposition of what your canoe was when it came into the factory for repair. Here is an original build record for an early Molitor that was sold to CJ Molitor. It says "Molitor" in the Model line, and Molitors generally had the features shown: AA grade, 36" bow deck, 24" stern deck, etc., plus the stem profile shown in the photos post #3 above.

They did sell them to others, not just Molitor. Here is a 17' Molitor that shipped to R.H. Macy in New York:

And here is one that was shipped to a customer in Olyphant, PA. It has a very different style of deck but is still called "Molitor"; this one has the same unusual stem profile as other early Molitors, so that profile seems to be one of the truly distinguishing features of this model (and again, this profile is distinct from your canoe #560 and from the later Old Town Molitor):

Photos of that canoe are here (note its stem profile):

Just picked up an Old Town Molitor and Yankee

I got a call from WCHA member Dan yesterday wondering if I'd be interested in his 1941 16' Yankee #131955, and his 1921 18' Molitor #66010. 24 hours later & they are mine (thanks again Dan!). He had copies of the OT build sheet for both canoes from the lady he got them from, so we're sure of...

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Finally, here is a build record for a modern Molitor, and a catalog page showing the model, distinctly different from the early Molitor and with decks and stem profile more reminiscent of your canoe:

 

[Benson Gray]

There is no compelling reason to rename this thread although it can be done. It is not unusal for someone to find out here that their canoe isn't what they originally thought it was. There is no precise definition of the Molitor model since it was never listed in any of their catalogs before 1965. The first three links below show several Molitor models from the early 1920s that are all different. It appears that any fancy canoe with extended stems could be called a Molitor. The catalogs that Deane Gray showed you in 1964 probably included some from other builders like the one at https://www.wcha.org/catalogs/morris/1919-cat.gif from B. N. Morris in 1919 which was in his desk at that time.

I agree that your canoe looks like a Kingsbury. There are no known serial number records for any of the Charles River area builders so most of the dates associated with them are just estimates.

The value question is particularly difficult in this case as Michael mentioned. A Kingsbury canoe with torpedo stems and early Old Town Molitor models are both rare canoes. Name recognition is worth something and relatively few people have heard of Kingsbury canoes while many more people are likely to recognize the Old Town name. The last link below has some more suggestions about how to value canoes like yours.

Please keep us posted on what you decide to do with your canoe and if you have any other questions,

Benson

AA grade Old Town Molitor model in original condition from 1921

This is an AA grade Old Town Molitor model in original condition from 1921. It has closed gunwales and pocked ribs like a Morris.

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1921 Old Town Molitor

I've just completed restoring this 18' Old Town Molitor made in 1921, serial # 66010-18. It's AA Grade with all original mahogany inner & outer rails, seats, decks, and thwarts. It also has the original external stems and keel. The tops of the seat & thwart bolts are covered with mahogany...

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Old Town Canoe Molitor Model from 1922

This is an example of an seventeen foot long Molitor model in AA grade from the Old Town Canoe Company that was built in 1922 with open gunwales.

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How much is my old wooden canoe worth?

How much is my old canoe worth? One of the most common questions that gets sent to the WCHA webmasters is "how much is my old canoe worth?" Tim Hewitt's responses over the years have included the following comments: Any wooden or wood/canvas canoe in usable condition is worth $1000 - $1500. A...

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