Peterborough, Chestnut or ?

[Boatnut]

Greetings fellow canoe nuts,
I recently purchased a 15’ (37” beam) partially restored wood & canvas canoe and am in the process of acquiring the supplies and tools (as well as the knowledge) that I will need to complete the job.
I have the often-asked questions about the manufacturer, model and year and hope that someone can help me in this regard. Dragonfly.com has not been much help.
The number on the stem appears to be PCC 0029615 (the 6 may be may be an 8) There is no brass plate. The number does not follow the usual numbering system of 4 + 4 that I have read about for Peterborough boats, but I am thinking that PCC must stand for Peterborough Canoe Company. I have looked through the threads for Peterborough on the forum page of the WCHA website, but am not finding a picture of a boat that has all of the same details.
I am attaching some photos that I hope will give you, the experts, clues as to the manufacturer, model and build year. You’ll see that the thwart is especially unique. I appreciate any assistance that you can provide.
Matt Lutkus, Damariscotta Maine

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All reactions:
1111

 

[Benson Gray]

Are any pictures of the serial number available? This looks like a good project,

Benson

 

[Boatnut]

Sorry. I meant to include that.

 

[Benson Gray]

The font and size are much different from any that I have ever seen on an Peterborough or Chestnut with a tag. These characters are about a quarter of the stem width while they are more commonly about half or more. There are many here who know much more about Canadian canoes than me so hopefully one of them will be able to help.

Benson

 

[patrick corry]

I would be willing to bet that this canoe has been modified/restored within its' lifetime, thus perhaps obscuring it's original appearance. A couple of observations:

The center thwart is most likely a non-original addition used by a canoeist who was knowledgeable about attaching a tumpline, as it's profile suggests; not likely an original part of the canoe. The caning of the seats is unlike either the Chestnut or Peterborough pattern- the interweave of the vertical and horizontal intersection is likely incorrect for those builders. It's likely that the weave, and perhaps the seat frames themselves, is not original- my experience is that Chestnut seat frames were invariably square edged stock, not rounded over as yours are. The bow and stern decks are quite long for a standard manufacture canoe and may also be an addition during a restoration. Lastly, the only 15' x 37" canoe either by Chestnut or Peterborough that I'm aware of is the Chestnut Bob Special at 37". Here again, it's possible that a restorer added a wider than original center thwart to arrive at 37" beam, further clouding the identification.

Edit: the 1964 Chestnut catalog lists another possible option: the 'lightweight commercial canoe', at 15'x37"x12"

 

[patrick corry]

What's the amidships depth of the canoe? What type of keel does it have; tapered or shoe?

 

[MGC]

What's the amidships depth of the canoe? What type of keel does it have; tapered or shoe?

Looks like a standard keel based upon the screw pattern.

 

[patrick corry]

MGC, you're observant and probably correct... I hadn't thought to look at the screw pattern!

 

[Boatnut]

Thank you very much for that info. I must have looked at a thousand vintage canoes online yesterday to try to find matches for the unique features of my boat, e.g., the center thwart and the seat and thwart screw heads. The closest matches to the deck design seem to be some of the Penn Yans and Old Towns. Two of the canoes on the cover of the Stelmok & Thurlow book have very similar deck and bow and stern thwarts/handles to those on my boat.
Further notes, My measurement for the the widest point for the beam was 35” - I added two inches to account for the missions outer gunwales. The keel is missing so I don’t have any clues on that. I’ll take some more measurements and add those to this thread shortly.

 

[Boatnut]

Here are more of the details if that helps: the ribs are 2 3/8 inches wide and 1 1/2 inches apart, the boat at the center thwart is 13 1/2 inches deep, and the bow is 17 1/2 inches high on exterior at its highest point. The planking is 3 1/8 inches wide. There is currently no keel on the canoe, but my guess is that this was removed by the previous owner who has since passed away. I’ll attach a photo of the underside.




Again, thank you for the great info. Matt

 

[patrick corry]

Your dimensions are consistent with Chestnut catalog listings for the Ranger, the 15' iteration of the Prospector Series, dating as far back as 1928. 15'x35"x13.5", with 2 3/8" ribs. Your canoe had a 'tapered' keel judging by the keel screw pattern; thanks MGC (shoe keels, which are wider, have the screws offset to either side of the plank centerline). Keels were apparently optional on Prospector series canoes. Coincidentally, that's a canoe I am currently restoring as well! The original decks on my canoe are heart-shaped or lobed as seen below. It's my understanding that the Chestnut Canoe Co. & the Peterborough Canoe Co. were combined under the umbrella of the Canadian Canoe Co. and the forms and designs of individual canoes were interchangeably built between the shops, perhaps leading to some blurring of distinct design features that may have previously existed.



Here's mine:

 

[Murat V]

It's my understanding that the Chestnut Canoe Co. & the Peterborough Canoe Co. were combined under the umbrella of the Canadian Canoe Co.

Canadian Canoe Co was a different company. Peterborough & Chestnut merged into Canadian Watercraft Ltd in 1923, and then Canadian Canoe Co was acquired around 1928. However, this was dissolved after both Canadian and Peterborough went bankrupt in the early 60s.

Any indications of square head Robertson screws used in the boat? That usually indicated a Canadian origin or repair. As others have pointed out, previous restorations might be obscuring the origins. The decks are quite long and look like Black Cherry. Don't believe Chestnut / Peterborough used that and catalog images don't show bow & stern handles used in their boats either. As Patrick noted in an earlier post, the seat weaving pattern is also not consistent with Peterborough & Chestnut.

Pretty sure your serial number has nothing to do with Peterborough Canoe Co, either. They never proceeded their serial numbers with a letters. Like Benson mentioned, the size of the stamped numbers are much smaller than what was traditionally stamped on the stem.

However, your serial number got me thinking. The first 3 letters look like an early version of a Hull Identification Number. When it HIN was introduced in 1972, companies scrambled to register their business name according to the 3 letter code system. Since 1972, the nomenclature has changed over the years and now the HIN is a 12 character alpha numeric sequence.

Anyway, a search for 'PCC' reveals it to be the company code for THE POWERCAT COMPANY LLC, but this was previously registered as PERMA CRAFT CANOES, now out of business (oob). I've only come across all fibreglass Perma Craft canoes (with wood trim) not a cedar plank hull like yours. Who knows, since your hull has been fiberglassed and altered, perhaps this was one of their early models?

Whatever the origin, you'll have a perfectly functional canoe once its been restored.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

Def not a Peterborough or Chestnut, as Murat has pointed out.

 

[patrick corry]

"Canadian Canoe Co was a different company. Peterborough & Chestnut merged into Canadian Watercraft Ltd in 1923, and then Canadian Canoe Co was acquired around 1928."

Thanks Murat for that clarification. Andre, if one discounts the inwales, decks, thwarts, seats which I suspect are the result of an earlier restoration, what is it that makes you sure the hull is neither Peterborough or Chestnut? Not being argumentative here, just curious. Thanks, Pat

 

[samb]

I understand that one feature to look out for on later Chestnuts - so probably also Peterboroughs and Canadian CCs is the wide cant rib

 

[Pook]

I've been following this discussion with some interest.
My 1971 Prospector does have bow and stern carrying handles which I've always assumed were original issue. ( I'm second owner)
Looking at the cupped washers and Phillips head screws I realize i should have questioned that long ago...

Thanks. Sort of...

Bruce

 

[Murat V]

Bruce,
I've attached an image of the '71 Chestnut catalogue showing their prospector page. They have a neat photo (recycled in earlier and later catalogues) that shows a 17ft Garry held up vertically. You can see there are no carry thwarts on the ends.

The Chestnut Indian / Maiden had end thwarts, but that is likely because the inwales didn't go all the way to the end of the boat. The long cedar decks were notched to receive the inwales and would be a weak point for lifting...

source: http://dragonflycanoe.com/content/chestnut-indian-maiden

Dick P. has an image on his website showcasing this model in 1978, revived as a special edition model but apparently only a few were made before the shutdown. Carry handles made sense here because of the fancy but weaker cedar deck. Can't see any carry handles in their other models on the right side.

I've also seen thwart handles on long Ogilvy canoes but these heavy boats have other defining features (3 inch ribs spaced 1/2" apart, centre plank board, etc) that are nothing like the original poster's shorter 15' canoe.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

The Chestnut Indian / Maiden had end thwarts

The Chestnut Indian / Maiden had end thwarts Watch those catalogs, dont think the factory knew to adhere to the photos or specs! and before you say it, Peterborough Iroquois' were built in Fredericton haha