old town with serial number 64558 17
- Thread starter phschmidt
- Start date
Welcome and congratulations, the Old Town canoe with serial number 64558 is a 17 foot long, AA (or top) grade, Ideal model with red western cedar planking, open mahogany gunwales, mahogany decks, mahogany thwarts, mahogany seats, half ribs, and a keel. It was built between January, and April, 1921. The original exterior paint color was black. It shipped on May 20th, 1921 to Valley Park, Missouri. A scan showing the build record can be found below.
This scan and several hundred thousand more were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will donate, join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/about-wcha to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/store/membership to join.
It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer this description doesn't match the canoe. Feel free to reply if you have any other questions. Good luck with the restoration,
Benson
This scan and several hundred thousand more were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will donate, join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/about-wcha to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/store/membership to join.
It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer this description doesn't match the canoe. Feel free to reply if you have any other questions. Good luck with the restoration,
Benson
Finally getting into the restoration. I have some mahogany wood for a missing Thwart. Not sure I like how it has turned out. I used one of the other ones as a template. Also, previous owner had added eye bolts on bow and stern that I do not believe are a item on original old towns. I used the sanding dust from the thwart and some wood glue to fill them in. Not sure if I'm going to have to make totally new ones. Attached are photos. Any suggestions or advice is appreciated.
Attachments
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
I'd suggest reaching out to someone near you who has an Old Town from this era. Neither of the two thwarts shown in your photo are original. The shape of Old Town thwarts changed over the years, so it would be good to attempt to replicate one from the early 1920s for your canoe. On the other hand, thwarts can be replaced at any time, so if you just want a useable canoe, you can think about this later (if ever).
The pictures at the link below show a 1921 Old Town Molitor's thwarts which may help.
Benson
Benson
MGC
Scrapmaker
First, right on for removing those deck abominations. You are correct. They do not belong, although it is not unusual for people to add all kinds of bazar deck contraptions and in doing so, ruin perfectly wonderful decks, or breasthooks as those "boat people" like to call them.
I'd be inclined to plug those holes with some mahogany. You should be able to remove the paste you made and insert a few plugs made from some of that errant thwart wood. If you get the right piece of wood and rotate the grain to match, you should almost be able to make those holes disappear.
That will be a really nice canoe when you finish it. The AA's are real "lookers" and the Ideal is a nice hull to paddle.
I'd be inclined to plug those holes with some mahogany. You should be able to remove the paste you made and insert a few plugs made from some of that errant thwart wood. If you get the right piece of wood and rotate the grain to match, you should almost be able to make those holes disappear.
That will be a really nice canoe when you finish it. The AA's are real "lookers" and the Ideal is a nice hull to paddle.
Thanks all. The Thwarts on the 1921 Old Town Molitor look about like the ones that were on my 1921 Ideal. I will definitely need to work on the one I'm trying to fabricate... Also thanks for advice on the decking. I'll try to use a plug and just drill out the paste.
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Did one of the two thwarts in your first photo come off the canoe? I ask because neither one looks original for a 1921 Old Town, or any Old Town for that matter. Both are distinctly different from the correct shaping. Just saying this so that you might seek out a true original to replicate or to have replicated.
Dave Wermuth
Who hid my paddle?
It's personal preference. You could do a back side repair. Carefully remove planking to get the area and mortise a patch. Replacing a rib is straight forward. Matching color is the challenge that I've never quite mastered.
Dave Osborn
LIFE MEMBER
Very possible that it is 3 ribs…..
Cut a 1/8” hardwood patch. Pre-bend it to the contour of the rib. Chisel a mortise about half the thickness of the rib to accept the patch. Make a backing block for the inside of the rib. Apply FlexEpoxy to the mortise and clamp it along with the back support block.
You may want to make the backing block first. Use it to maintain shape. Epoxy and clamp the block and crack to give it stability when you chisel the mortise pocket.
I like diamond or rounded hardwood patches. Eliminates the stress riser of a square end on a rectangle.
I’ve done hundreds of backside repairs with no known failures.
Or you could replace the rib.
Cut a 1/8” hardwood patch. Pre-bend it to the contour of the rib. Chisel a mortise about half the thickness of the rib to accept the patch. Make a backing block for the inside of the rib. Apply FlexEpoxy to the mortise and clamp it along with the back support block.
You may want to make the backing block first. Use it to maintain shape. Epoxy and clamp the block and crack to give it stability when you chisel the mortise pocket.
I like diamond or rounded hardwood patches. Eliminates the stress riser of a square end on a rectangle.
I’ve done hundreds of backside repairs with no known failures.
Or you could replace the rib.
Attachments
Worth Gretter
LOVES Wooden Canoes
I vote with Dave Wermuth and Dave Osborn. This is a good candidate for a backside repair. You have 2 ribs right next to each other, so removing planks gets you access to both. And, the cracks are right on the gap between planks, so the area you are fixing is centered between those 2 planks. And, you won't have to color match new ribs. One more and: if don't do the greatest job, it doesn't show!
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
What people are suggesting generally is that you have what may be and certainly could be a very fine canoe, and that you might wish to consider giving it a quality restoration, even if it has seen its share of hard knocks. A 1921 AA-grade Ideal from 1921 is a nice canoe and one that, among Old Towns, is not very common. Properly restored, the beauty of that century-old mahogany against red cedar planking and white cedar ribs will be stunning.
Backside rib repairs are certainly warranted here. Yes, you may see a hairline crack if you know it's there and look for it, but if you do this right it will be essentially invisible to everyone but you. And done right your repairs should be structurally sound. And yes, it will look far better than the mismatch between most old wood vs. replaced ribs.
Do you have one of the good books on restoration? My personal favorite is this one:
www.woodencanoe.org
and Mike Elliott has produced two restoration guides more recently, called "This Old Canoe" and "This Fancy Old Canoe."
These are great reads, loaded with practical information. I'd also suggest that if possible you find someone near you who can offer advice and maybe help. These forums are great and as you can see, people are very willing to share. But if you can get a hands-on guide beside you, all the better. I'm mentoring a first-time restorer now and it he's very fortunate to have such a ready source of experience (and specialty tools).
There was another thread here where a rough but restorable - and exceptionally rare - canoe was (in my opinion) fairly thoroughly destroyed. The owner patched it up and got it back on the water, but if that could be done then so could have been done a fine restoration, except for an unwillingness to take carefully considered advice. We often say here that it's your canoe and you can do what you want with it. Yours isn't the only AA-grade Ideal, and plenty of other canoes die of rot, fire and many other maladies. Even so, if this were mine I'd certainly want to do the best I could for it. If you do, you'll learn a lot, have fun, have much to be proud of, and will have saved a classic.
Backside rib repairs are certainly warranted here. Yes, you may see a hairline crack if you know it's there and look for it, but if you do this right it will be essentially invisible to everyone but you. And done right your repairs should be structurally sound. And yes, it will look far better than the mismatch between most old wood vs. replaced ribs.
Do you have one of the good books on restoration? My personal favorite is this one:
The Wood & Canvas Canoe: A Complete Guide | WoodenCanoeHeritage
Author: Jerry StelmokRollin ThurlowFrom the final decade of the 19th century until the mid 1950’s, the predominant small water craft for recreationists, summer camps, and wilderness travelers was the iconic canvas covered wooden canoe built by Old Town, B.N. Morris, E.M. White, Chestnut, J.H...
www.woodencanoe.org
and Mike Elliott has produced two restoration guides more recently, called "This Old Canoe" and "This Fancy Old Canoe."
These are great reads, loaded with practical information. I'd also suggest that if possible you find someone near you who can offer advice and maybe help. These forums are great and as you can see, people are very willing to share. But if you can get a hands-on guide beside you, all the better. I'm mentoring a first-time restorer now and it he's very fortunate to have such a ready source of experience (and specialty tools).
There was another thread here where a rough but restorable - and exceptionally rare - canoe was (in my opinion) fairly thoroughly destroyed. The owner patched it up and got it back on the water, but if that could be done then so could have been done a fine restoration, except for an unwillingness to take carefully considered advice. We often say here that it's your canoe and you can do what you want with it. Yours isn't the only AA-grade Ideal, and plenty of other canoes die of rot, fire and many other maladies. Even so, if this were mine I'd certainly want to do the best I could for it. If you do, you'll learn a lot, have fun, have much to be proud of, and will have saved a classic.
