oil paint primer

[Fredthecat]

Recieved my Kirby paint, ready to get into it.

What kind and color of primer coat(s) should be used under Kirby Bottle Green paint?

just "oil based primer" or special marine primer paint?

Is primer coat needed if original paint is sanded "evenly"?
Painting Kirby bottle green over sanded original light sky blue.

 

[fred capenos]

0il paint primer

I've painted three with Kirby paint, (two bottle green, 0ne rich red) and had very good results without any primer. The finest sand paper I use is 220 between coats, and I put four coats on . Roller and tip with brush .

Good Luck Fred

 

[Fredthecat]

Thanks Fred,
Did you have to thin the Kirby much?
If so, what did you use, straight paint thinner or mineral spirits?
Did you add Pentetrol conditioner?

Thanks Fred

 

[Andy Hutyera]

I second Fred's suggestion. There were several threads before the crash about blistering. The consensus as I recall was not to use primer.

Kirby right out of the can is too thick to brush out. I like Penetrol as adding a small amount vastly improves the spreadablity of the finish. I suspect mineral spirits might have the same effect. I chose Penetrol because I have a friend who is a professional painter and he swears by the stuff. I was very pleased with the result.

I did use primer and got blistering the first time the canvas got wet. They still appear and disappear after two years.

Hope this helps.

 

[fred capenos]

Fred the Cat
Kirby paint is very thick...this worked for me:
Stir first and measure one cup of paint
Stir first and add 1/2 cup of Penetrol
Mix well and using a 4 inch foam roller, roll a 1-1/2 foot section vertically starting at either end..tip with a good 2 inch paint brush longitudially immediately..don't wait
Always tip into the fresh paint not away from it
Don't stop, go to the other side and repeat
By now you should know if an adjustment needs to be made with the Penetrol
we don't want the brush to drag and we don't want the paint to sag. The key is to keep moving so two people will work best. Always keep the paint stirred while using. And remember, you will be sanding off most of the first coat and a lot of the second and some of the third. So you have 3 coats, (chances) to get it right. If you don't like the look after 4 coats, call Kirby and get another quart..you can't hurt it. Later Fred

 

[Andy Hutyera]

I've seen the kind of results Fred gets with this technique. His finish is truly outstanding so I suspect you can't go wrong following his method.

 

[Fitz]

Primer

Okay, so I have confessed more than once to my problems with blisters. I am a scientist and through trial and error I will get to the bottom of this eventually - 'course by then I might be 80 or so.

I have a Prospector, with a lovely non-traditional Maine RED paint job. Yah, I know, I was possessed and felt the need for a red canoe. Anyway, no primer. No sandpaper finer than 220. Probably 4 coats of sanded paint.

I had that canoe on the Moose River in the Maine Rain. Interior got soaked along with the owner and his gear over a few days. Blisters formed on the last day and looked like the chicken pox. Tripping bud with his porch and deck enamel had no issues.

So, I have put Interlux Pre-kote primer on about 4 canoes since. I put two well sanded primer coats on the canoe and two sanded color coats. I have not heard of blister issues to date. However, these are not my canoes and they have not to my knowledge gotten soaked on the interior from a good, "The Rain in Maine Falls Mainely on Fitz", type trip.

I will have to experiment and report back if I ever get around to putting a primer on my own canoes for a change!

My 2 cents on primer for what it is worth.

(PS. a thorough scientist would also evaluate his filler....hmmmnnn, so I may be approaching 140 years before I figure it out).

Fitz.

 

[Andy Hutyera]

Fitz,

For what it's worth, I used the exact same paint you did with penetrol over one or two coats of Kirby primer. Under all that was Rollin's filler which had cured for at least six to eight weeks. The first time I got water in the canoe the blisters appeared. They mostly go away after it dries. Since my canoes are all "users" I don't get too obsessive about it, but I'd sure like to understatnd what is going on!

BTW, I really enjoyed the write up of your Maine trip. If you can portage that 85 lb. Prospector over that long portage, you're in a lot better shape than I am.

As far as I'm concerned, you don't have to appologize for painting your Prospector bright red, some of us are partial to the color!

 

[fred capenos]

oil paint and primer

Wow--- talk about good company, and talk about sticking my neck out. First I want to thank Andy Hutyera for the kind words regarding the paint on our Peterborough. However, I failed to mention that it was all done with a 2 " brush. Pams' article about foam rollers had not been printed yet. The two advantages I find with the roller is speed and a more even coat. Our Peterborough has Rollins'#10 mildew resistant canvas and his Northwoods filler under Kirby rich red Paint To date it has had no issues.

Dan Miller wrote that you may need to add more Penetrol to the paint while you are aplying it due to evaporation. And I agree wholeheartedly.At this point in my short career I'm not too sure you can put too much Penetrol in the paint. As I'm painting, if the paint starts to stiffen up I just dump some more in not wanting to take the time to measure. Also, any mixed paint that is left over, I put in a can to cover any memories I put on during a paddle, and always need to add a bit more Penetrol to get the paint flowing.

Also a note to Fitz: I enjoy and respect all your printed dialog. Thanks!

Later Fred

 

[martin ferwerda]

For what it is worth... I have a canoe I painted with deck and porch enamel and have never seen it blister, I had a canoe painted with interlux brightside and have seen it blister. I have seen this much less with Kirby paint, but again some blistering. The blistering only happens when water sits in the inside of the canoe for some time, and yes they go away once the canoe dries back out and it does not really seem to affect anything. This blistering is not caused by a soaked canoe being set upside down in the sun, my best guess is that the filler is letting water through from the inside. I have also noticed too much penetrol will affect the gloss or sheen of the paint.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

What I do

I use thinner in the paint, be it Kirby's (my favorite) or tractor enamel. I get it to the consistency that I think is about right and then add an ounce or so of penetrol. Penetrol seems to slow down the drying process and lets it level out. It also helps the paint to flow. It just has a better feel to it than without penetrol.

 

[Pete Mathews]

Primers

Further to Fitz's comments. Many marine primers contain phenolic beads (microballons) to help fill scratches and smooth out the surface. these, when present in large enough concentrations, can absorb moisture and cause blistering. These beads don't ususally cause a problem on a canoe since they're not in the water long enough to absorb moisture. There are times (long water soaked trips) when it could happen. These primers are not intended to be used as a sealer or as a base color for the topside paint. As at least one manufacturer explains in their instructions, these primers should be sanded to a translucent finish. meaning the color underneath (filler) should be showing through. This prevents the beads from being present in a high enough concentration to blister while still filling imperfections in the finish. If this is followed, the next most likely reason for blistering is too fine a sandpaper.

Most paint manufacturers recommend 220 grit, as I've been reading here. Anything over 320 (e.g. 400, 600 etc.) will not provide enough "tooth" to properly adhere the top coat to the substrate. This can cause blistering and delamination from water penetration, or just from sunlight (heat). When using dark colors the temperature increase on the paint surface can be significant. (Dark colors absorb heat, light colors reflect heat.). There I would suggest nothing finer than 220, light colors are usually okay using 320 in my experience.

 

[Fitz]

Paint

Thanks for the comments Pete.

Here's one I'm working on now. Two coats of pre-kote, but as you say, most of each coat ends up sanded off. This is the first color coat of Kirby's. It will get one more after I install the keel and outwales.

I have a Bob's Special that I finished the same way earlier this summer. I haven't experienced a rain soaked multi-day trip in it yet, and I haven't had any blisters on that canoe yet either. Time will tell.

 

[revcp]

Fred the Cat
Kirby paint is very thick...this worked for me:
Stir first and measure one cup of paint
Stir first and add 1/2 cup of Penetrol
Mix well and using a 4 inch foam roller, roll a 1-1/2 foot section vertically starting at either end..tip with a good 2 inch paint brush longitudially immediately..don't wait
Always tip into the fresh paint not away from it
Don't stop, go to the other side and repeat
By now you should know if an adjustment needs to be made with the Penetrol
we don't want the brush to drag and we don't want the paint to sag. The key is to keep moving so two people will work best. Always keep the paint stirred while using. And remember, you will be sanding off most of the first coat and a lot of the second and some of the third. So you have 3 coats, (chances) to get it right. If you don't like the look after 4 coats, call Kirby and get another quart..you can't hurt it. Later Fred

Hi, Fred. Don't know whether this thread is still "live", but I'll give it a shot and hope. I just received my Kirby red in the mail (the bright red) and will be (re)painting next week. Is it possible to define some of your terminology? E.g. "tipping". And I assume I know what vertical (hull to gunwale?) and longitudinal (along the hull, parallel to keel?), but wouldn't swear I'm correct. I'm looking forward to getting a few additional coats on my 1925 Otca before heading up to Quetico for two weeks in June. Thanks so much!

 

[Dave Wermuth]

I've used Kirby and like it. I've use a small amount of thinner and/or penetrol at various times. What I've come to do lately is to roll it on in the direction that the ribs lay and then roll it out with lighter pressure in the direction the planking lays. the good paint levels itself out, the bubbles dissapate within a minute. the light lengthwise rolling is like the method of tipping, you can search tipping on this site and get a better explanation than I can give. I think I prefer a little thinner better than penetrol these days. BUT, follow Fred's directions on the painting once you get your paint to consistency. And you can always get another quart....