Newbie buys 16 ft OT (Maine Guide?) canoe and asks for comments

[birdbrain]

Having wanted a wood/canvas canoe since I was 13 and realizing it's been over 30 years I'd better get moving, I managed to buy this canoe on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=m37&satitle=190154994675%09&category0=&fvi=1

If that link doesn't work it's item number 190154994675, which I believe you can still look up on ebay. I'm also trying to put up some of my photos with this message.

She's 16 ft, 34 inch beam, relatively flat bottom with the classic OT bolts. I believe that makes her the 16 ft Maine Guide model. She was restored by Bob Henn in 1971. It has one layer of fiberglass with this red paint which feels like a sort of plastic, very slippery but bumpy, the paint seemed to ball up, some of those bumps remain.

He put in a little new planking, I hope the pictures work out because some of the planking is 1960s era paneling, the kind you might still have on your wall in the basement! I think it's fantastic that this resourceful man used this stuff and it still seems to be working 30 + years later, he also put on this interesting outwale and keel, obviously using the materials he had available during that time in central Ohio.

The biggest surprise I found when I got it home and got a close look is that it was "hogged", I believe this is the right term for a keel that rises up in the middle, creating a very weird bottom geometry with a hump in the middle of the canoe. I was thinking I was going to have to remove the interior paint, remove the keel of course and fill the canoe with hot or boiling water to get this hump out.

But yesterday I put it in the water for the first time in my tiny pond. I paddled it around a bit solo, with the canoe backwards and kneeling against the bow thwart, basically my 190 pounds kneeling on this hump. Now the hogging is 90% gone. I've attempted to show what's left of this curve with a photo taken this morning. I'm wondering if this hogging is common and if it's been much of a problem for other restorers? Of course, I doubt that very many canoes had these keels added and I'm hoping that taking off that keel will remedy the problem entirely.

I am planning on doing a full restore, ie strip the inside, remove the fiberglass, replace the paneling planking, replace any problem ribs and recanvas. I'm considering doing it in sort of two stages however, strip the inside and varnish this year, replace the outwale and use the canoe next summer. Then basically do the full restoration after that. I'm just so busy I don't think I can do it all this winter and I want to paddle it so bad!!

Thanks for any comments and I really like this forum.

 

[birdbrain]

I tried uploading the pictures twice without success, will try again

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Bird...

Nothing wrong with having a knockabout canoe, but even one like this can be restored to amazing beauty. You might be surprised at what's under the paint- one way or another. Sometimes paint masks serious problems, but I have removed paint a couple of times to find the most amazingly well-preserved wood- though it covers the natural beauty, paint really protects the wood.

The fiberglass may require a heat gun and lots of elbow grease with a putty knife (search here for other threads about fiberglass removal), but if it wasn't applied well, it could come off extremely easily.

The keel was probably standard. If you get the paint off the stems where they come down into the canoe bottom, you'll likely find a serial number which you can post on these forums for a copy of the canoe's build record. It will indicate if the keel was original. You can remove it, but what about all the screw holes? In fact, installation of a new keel may help solve that hogging problem.

Your canoe looks like it may have been a sponson model originally- these had the short grab/carry thwarts installed at each end. You can tell if sponsons (air chambers along each side of the canoe) were there because there will be double screw holes- one above the other- near the top of every second rib.

Finally (you may already recognize this), the original outwales have been replaced. There are many threads here discussing the production and mounting of new outwales. You can cut and bend your own, or order them from Old Town. Problem is, your canoe is old given the shape of the deck cutout, and many of the old bending jigs were discarded long ago. New pre-bent outwales from Old Town rarely fit properly without additional steaming, bending, mutterring, swearing... Probably best to make your own.

Michael

 

[birdbrain]

Thanks for the nice reply. I don't see any evidence at all of a serial number, I think the stems may have been redone before 1971 when Mr. Henn did it or perhaps he replaced them, too.

My canoe does have the two holes on every other rib, thank you for identifying that these were for sponsons, I had no idea what they were for, I thought Mr. Henn put them in.

Oh yeah, I recognize these are replacement outwales, no question. Thanks for the tip about lack of old forms, I was sort of thinking of buying the pre-bent replacements, might have to rethink that.

I didn't know these canoes ever came with keels, thanks for that tip also. The keel is made from the exact same material as the replacement outwales which is why I think Mr. Henn added it.

I know this idea of a two step restoration is nuts, I'm looking to be talked out of it. I guess I am not looking forward to removing all the fiberglass, I fear it's going to be heck to get off. Maybe it will peel off in one piece on one of these cold winter days.

I definitely want to restore the beauty of the wood, that's why I want to take off the paint and varnish the interior.

Am I right in calling this a Maine Guide model?

 

[Michael Grace]

Your canoe could be a Guide model, or perhaps the term given to your canoe is just generic, meaning that it is a canoe that may have been used by a guide. Old Town's Guide model was wide and had a flat floor and a fairly flat sheer line giving it low ends; it is hard to tell much about your canoe's shape from the photos, but it looks more like an HW model. The HW ("heavy waters" or "Henry Wickett"...) had a more rounded bottom and higher ends than the Guide.

HW models were the most common, accounting for about a quarter of Old Town's total prouction numbers. And sponson canoes very often were built as HWs. That is, very often, when a build record shows a sponson canoe, it is an HW (though sponsons could be built onto any canoe or boat, including the Guide model). In addition, the old catalogs show cross sections of the canoes, and the so-called "Sponson Canoe" has a cross section that matches the HW. Interestingly, though a build record might indicate "HW" with sponsons, for a long time, going way back to the early years of the company, a separate page of the catalog was devoted to the "Sponson Canoe".

Sponsons add a great deal of weight, and some people prefer not to deal with either the weight or the added work of restoring sponsons. I assume yours are long gone; you could re-build them from scratch, but that would really be a job. There are a number of threads here dealing with sponsons; do a search to learn more.

Your stems may well still hold serial numbers. Put a little stripper onto the stems (no, not a tiny dancer, but the chemical kind), and see if you can uncover a serial number. That thick paint would easily obscure the numbers stamped into the wood.

Oh, one of your pics- the one showing the stem end and the floor of the canoe- shows a washer lying in the bottom of the canoe. These conical washers aren't made anymore, and there are surely people who would like to have some. Small issue, but if you don't replace the keel, save the washers for yourself or someone else. If you do replace the keel, you'll be satisfied that you saved the washers for yourself.

Michael

 

[birdbrain]

Thanks so much for the response, it's so helpful. I have to say that restoring this canoe seems daunting enough for me without worrying about the sponsons. I'd like to be able to portage this canoe, as you say, sponsons add weight and complexity.

I really don't think I'll find a serial number on this canoe. There is absolutely no sign of them and the stems look awfully funky, I think they've been redone, also. I'll try and get a photo.

I wonder if a person should tackle the fiberglass first or stripping the interior and finding out how many ribs are bad?

I'll try and get some more photos that show the overall shape better, some of the ones on ebay do to a degree. I'm so relieved that the first thing I did with this canoe seemed to alleviate my major concern, the hogging. (Is that the right term, by the way?)

I can't tell you how much pleasure it gave me to see this boat in the water. I guess I have the best of both worlds, a project boat I can paddle a couple times before I tackle the restoration.

Thank you all so much.

Anyone in central KY or nearby send me a message.

Curt Welling
Versailles, KY

 

[mark wismer]

Do your self a favor and grab a pint of gell methylene chloride paint stripper and Brush some on the inboard last 6" of the stem. The serial numer stamps were very shallow and would be covered after a few layers of paint.

The older fiberglass should come off, get a heat gun and work slow...

I stripped the interior of my canoe w/ out removing the canvas w/ no ill results so that won't help w/ the fiberglass BUT once you start to uncover the interior you will get hooked! Mine had been covered w/ a dark stain varninsh looked like an antique piano...then I saw one that was all original and wished to get mine in that condition. 17 years later I did. It is truly worth the effort.

 

[Blue Viking]

Try both stems!

From my limited experience, I have found that OT put the serial numbers on both ends....shallow angle flast light and good strong glasses (even if you dont need them) and a very light "dusting" of the wood should show the serial # and a lot of your questions will be answered on the build record. I have a 44 Guide that is in the process of be "restored". Both that and my 62 OTCA have keels

 

[birdbrain]

Thanks for the tips on searching out the serial numbers. I seem to remember the ones I've looked at to be deep and easy to read. Obviously my memory is faulty. I'll strip that area first and take a closer look.

I was definitely ignorant regarding keels on these canoes. I can see how a keel would protect the canvas when getting pulled over logs, rocks and such. In general, I've always thought keels were a bad idea but I'll have to re-think that.

I know I've seen descriptions of a "shoe keel" for wood/canvas canoes, a flatter, wider keel than the one shown on my boat. Is that the type of keel on your w/c canoes?

 

[Dan Miller]

Thanks for the tips on searching out the serial numbers. I seem to remember the ones I've looked at to be deep and easy to read.

That all depends on how hard they were stamped to begin with, how often and how hard the stems have been sanded, and how much finish and grime has built up atop them. Lots of variability in the readability of serial numbers...

I've always thought keels were a bad idea but I'll have to re-think that.

I am a member of the keel-less society. I usually only put a keel on if required for a historically accurate restoration.

I know I've seen descriptions of a "shoe keel" for wood/canvas canoes, a flatter, wider keel than the one shown on my boat. Is that the type of keel on your w/c canoes?

Shoe keels are pretty much the standard style seen on Canadian-built canvas canoes. Canoes built in the States typically have square keels (roughly 7/8" square).

Cheers,
Dan

 

[pklonowski]

keels

My '46 Otca has a shoe keel. It was added after its last re-canvassing effort, by the previous owner. I have the original keel, which is still quite usable. But when I finally get around to repairing the boat, it'll be keel-less. Will save the keels for some future owner's gratification.

 

[birdbrain]

I finally started stripping the inside of this canoe yesterday. It was the first weekend day above 50 degrees, was about 58 when I did the work. I'm assuming the chemical strippers don't do much if it's less than 40 or 50 degrees out.

Of course, I found more broken ribs, a series of 11 or 12 ribs all broken along roughly the same line, I guess this boat really took a crunch. But I'm pretty sure this was before 1971, I could tell by the way the paint is laid on it was before the paint job. Mr. Henn's planking from 1971 is unpainted, so the paint must pre-date that.

The worst news was that I still found no serial numbers on either stem, that's with heat gun stripping followed by chemical stripping. One stem, at least the floor part, is pretty much completely rotted. So I'm calling this an HW model Old Town canoe, formely with sponsons and leaving it at that.

I can't wait to peel the fiberglass off but I'm assuming I should strip the interior first. Won't taking off the fiberglass weaken the canoe quite a bit? I'm afraid I'll damage her trying to strip the interior with the fiberglass off.

Thanks for this forum and your comments.

 

[MikeCav]

Unless the canoe is a real wreck, it should survive just fine should you decide to take the fiberglass off first. However, the major advantages to leaving the glass on while stripping are:

1- It will keep your expensive stripper contained in the boat instead of leaking out through the cracks between planks.

2- It will help you avoid refinishing your floor or shoes (see #1)

3- Stripper trapped between the glass and the wood mayt help loosen the resin holding the glass on, making the stripping a bit easier.

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt! Good luck.

 

[bluedcanoed]

Conical washers

"Oh, one of your pics- the one showing the stem end and the floor of the canoe- shows a washer lying in the bottom of the canoe. These conical washers aren't made anymore, and there are surely people who would like to have some. Small issue, but if you don't replace the keel, save the washers for yourself or someone else. If you do replace the keel, you'll be satisfied that you saved the washers for yourself." Michael Grace.

Do you mean these?


Brass Finishing/Cup Washers

Brass Finishing/Cup Washers - Hardware
Finishing (or cup) washers substantially increase the holding power of a screw (flat or oval head) while giving it a finished look.

Useful for holding fabric or thin material, or for distributing screw load. Also suitable as low-profile box feet. Solid brass, sold in hundreds.

For odd-numbered screw sizes, use the next largest size.


#6 Cup Washers, pkg. of 100
94Z02.01 $4.40 Add to cart

#8 Cup Washers, pkg. of 100
94Z02.02 $4.70 Add to cart

#10 Cup Washers, pkg. of 100
94Z02.03 $5.60 Add to cart

#12 Cup Washers, pkg. of 100
94Z02.04 $6.80 Add to cart


For pictures, check LeeValley.com


Cheers,
Bob

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Bob,

No, the finish washers that are commonly available from Lee Valley, Jamestown and a variety of other sources are very different from those that were used by Old Town in the old days. If what you want is something to help disperse the force of the screw head on the rib, any of these products will work fine. However, if you want to do a truly authentic restoration, the stepped diameter, "inside-cup-only" washers used by Old Town are no longer made. Of course they could be replicated by punching some sheet brass to the correct diameter, and then forming the shape. Much easier to save the ones that were there in the first place, though.

Beautiful, servicable canoes are great things, but recently somewhere I saw an early Old Town that was described as having been authentically restored... But it had Old Town's more modern deck style, new seat frames with the wrong edge profile, splined pre-woven cane instead of hand-woven, brass nameplate instead of waterslide decal, sponsons were left off, keel was left off, etc., etc. As a canoe, it was fine, but an "authentic restoration" it was not.

M

 

[Blue Viking]

I have a 44 Guide and the ones in there are almost identical to some that I got from Rollin Thurlow for my Chestnut when I was restoring that one![/B]