My First Canoe needs expert advice/info

[genegene]

Well I'm new to the wooden canoe ownership crew and I just got one for free.

The original owner ordered it from a blueprint kit in (I'm guessing) the 60's and he and his brother built it.

After talking with the owner about the boat I found out that he was going to cut it up and toss it in the dumpster.

I told him that I would take it and fix it up and use it for my self and my kids.

I was told it was a canvas shell over wood slats and they tried that and it worked great but they weren't sure of how well it would hold up over time, so they decided to fiberglass the canvas shell for more durability.

They used it a couple of times before storing it in a barn for 20+- years before his son asked to use it.

Upon my arrival a few days later to pick up the canoe it was discovered by the owner since I had last been there, that there was some more minor extensive work that needed to be done because his son never put the canoe back and of course one end was in the dirt where he left it.

The repairs are not overly difficult to fix but its going to take me longer to fix then I originally planed, but the hard part is going to be the fact that with all the structural work in the top rear of the canoe I will need to remove about 4 feet of the fiber glass on one side and 3 on the other.

I have decided that it would just make more sense to remove all old original fiberglass, check all joints, take measurements and diagrams (in case something breaks in the future), re-urethane everything, and completely re fiberglass the entire canoe.

I know this may seem like a big deal to some of you more experienced people but this is my first one and I plan on having my 4yr old help me as much as he can so he will have some good memories of rebuilding a "boat" as he calls it.

I have a few questions about this project,:

1) Does anyone recognize this style of canoe so I may try and find some blueprints of it?

2) Where would I even get the canvas for a canoe so I can fiberglass it? Can I get it from Jo-Ann Fabrics or is there some place better that I should go?

3)What type of canvas do/should I use? Please take note of the horizontal and not vertical slats on the sides of the canoe in the pics.

I am including some pics of the Canoe. Sorry if they are little grainy but I cant find my digital Camera that has more pics of better quality on it.

Gene G.
Pittsfield, Mass.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

A great dad-son project

Hi Gene--

You have an example the classic dad and son project canoe-- the sort of thing that initiated many here to a life-long interest in wooden canoes and wilderness adventures. Some canoes like yours are a brand called Trailcraft, so that term is sometimes used to cover all canoes of this type. Plans were published in magazines like Popular Mechanics, and many such boats were built by scout troops as well as individuals (and their children).

I'll look through some old posts here and see if there isn't reference to a source of the plans... I seem to recall mention of where to find them.

Regarding canvas: here's a link to the WCHA builders and suppliers: http://wcha.org/buildsupply/

Someone else here may suggest a source of canvas, and suggest the weight you might want to use. You do not need to fiberglass over the canvas... that was the previous owner's "fix". Canvas can be made waterproof with paint, or you can treat the surface in the same manner as any wood/canvas canoe by applying filler to the canvas, and then sanding and painting-- but the original instructions were probably for paint alone. Fiberglass adds weight and can create problems for canoes designed to be canvas-covered.

Here's a recent post about a canoe similar to yours, showing the outcome of restoration. I'm sure Tim (Treewater) will share what he learned. http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5548

Kathy

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Another suggestion-- if you post pictures of the damaged area, others here may be able to give you advice on how to fix it without tearing it apart and doing a full restoration at this point... if so, you might get it into the water sooner and enjoy it for the summer.

Kathy

 

[Greg Nolan]

Gene --

There were a number of plans and kits for canoes such as yours -- if you do a search on Trailcraft (one of the more popular kits) in these forums, you will find much information about how this kind of canoe, called generically a skin on frame (SOF) canoe, is built, performs, and may be repaired. Treewater (Tim McDonald), mentioned by Kathy Klos, has written in these forums and has current experience with restoring this kind of canoe. Searching his posts will get you good information. Your canoe looks like it might be a Trailcraft, but I'm not sure.

I have some small experience with this sort of boat, having built a Trailcraft kit canoe many years ago. If you are going to remove the existing fiberglass, I think that you would be better off recovering with the canvas the boat was designed for -- it will be cheaper, much easier, and will be a task that a young child can have fun helping with. Epoxy/fiberglass project is not something I would want a 4 year old involved with -- both messy and dangerous for someone that young.

There are number of suppliers of canvas around -- go to the homepage of this site, click on "build and restore" and then on "Builder' and Suppliers' Directory." There may be someone near you who supplies canvas and can make recommendations about the type and weight to use -- and if no one is near, several will ship to you. I am familiar with two sources of materials in Maine, both of whom will ship -- Jerry Stelmok of Island Falls Canoe Co., and Rollin Thurlow of Northwoods Canoe Co. and can recommend either of them highly. I am not familiar with the builders listed in Massachusetts.

Painted canvas is much more durable than many people think, and it is much more flexible than fiberglass. Canvas supported by a wooden frame will give when striking an obstruction; fiberglass will either bounce away unharmed, if sturdy enough, or crack, if not. I would think a single layer of fiberglass (comparable to a canvas skin) on a canoe like yours would be very prone to cracking, and multiple layers would be excessively heavy. A canvas-covered SOF is quite durable enought for flat water paddling on rivers and lakes.

People with plastic boats (I have had a Mohawk Royalex canoe for more than 30 years, so know whereof I speak) tend to rely on their durability and treat them a bit roughly -- if not abusively. Wood and canvas does require more careful treatment, but nothing that is untoward. You shouldn't paddle a canvas canoe full speed onto a gravel beach, or just drop it on the ground when ending a portage -- things you can get away with using a plastic boat. You may have to get your feet a little wet when getting in and out of the canoe, and take a little care when pulling it onshore or moving it around a campsite. I believe that your canoe has an exterior keel (many w/c canoes do not) which, on a canoe like yours, is necessary structually, but which also provides some proctection against bottom abrasion. On your canoe, it should be replaced after a new cover is put on.

Welcome to the WCHA, and good luck with your project. You already know how to post pictures -- keep them coming as you proceed -- we all love pictures of other projects and other canoes.

Greg

 

[Tom Widney]

I recognize that canoe. In the sixties I saved my bucks and bought a kit for around $48 I think. Dad and I spent the winter of my nineth grade in the garage building it, I still have the canoe, it was my first. It is a Trailcraft, they went out of business in the 70's I believe... do a google on Trailcraft as I recall seeing a blurb written by the founders son on the internet not too long ago, within the last year but since then my computer has crashed and I lost the address.

However I did find the original manual at the bottem of a cardboard box and after 40 some odd years it still retains the fold marks but the scans are still legibile. Hope these help answerer your questions. Have fun with this canoe I know I did

Tom

 

[Tom Widney]

more manual

 

[genegene]

Thanks Tom,

I'm glad someone out there actually has instructions on this type of canoe. Can I get them sent to me via e-mail from you so I can print them out bigger?

Also do you know where I can find actual blueprints of the canoe? This one was a blueprint Canoe and I would love to make one from scratch for my geocaching (partner in crime) friend and his wife for Christmas.

I'm still up for suggestions about the Canvas though.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I started the removal of the fiberglass covered canvas and miscellaneous parts tonight and have checked out the main damaged area on the PORT side. Here is what is going to need to be fixed as of now.

I have cut off about 6 inches of the Gunwale on each side because of rot. Will replace with new sections.

The Stern Deck is going to be replaced and is going to be about 3 & 5/8 inches longer.

3 of the ribs are going to be replaced (entire length ) on the port side because of breaks at the Port Stern Rib.

The Port Stern Rib is going to be replaced because of break.

Port side Gunwale Cap is going to be replaced because of multiple breaks in it. Most likely the Starboard side will be replaced as well.

The Keel rib is most likely going to be replaced with something a little beefier. I'm thinking of a good hard wood, any suggestions?

Fresh sanding and a coat of urethane on the Bow Deck.

I'll take some more pics during the daylight tomorrow to show what I have so far.

Gene G.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

I think if you click twice on the images Tom provided, they should become large enough... then you can right-click and save at that size.

Keels are often ash or white oak.

We enjoy pictures of progress on canoes...

Kathy

 

[Tom Widney]

genegene,

What you see is what you get. Since this canoe was sold in kit form there was no full scale deminsioned set of plans provided. The originals are 8x10 and as Kathy mentioned you can retrieve that from the provided images. The second image is the only complete image of the canoe that was originally provided. I included the images I thought were necessary for a restore job, how ever there are more images I could provide that show the order of how to assemble the frame that I could also post. You will have to take measurements from the canoe you now have and loft your own set of blue prints if thats the way you really want to go. There are plenty sets of existing plans for canoes that allready exist and plenty of contempary kits available. Both plans and kits can be found on the builders suppliers section of this website. A good source for canvas can be found here also.

If you find that you need the rest of the pages of the manual let me know and I will post them.

Good luck and let us know what you decide
Tom

 

[Tom Widney]

PS

You may want to use spar varnish as opposed to urathane do a search on this forum for in depth discussions on the -subject
Tom

 

[Greg Nolan]

canoe plans

Gene --

Check your private messages.

Plans for a skin-on-frame cane may be found in the book "Building a Skin-on-Frame Boat" by Robert Morris, Hartley b& Marks publishers, 2001. I believe this is out of print, but you might be able to get it from a library.

Plans for a more traditional style canvas-covered wooden-hulled canoe were published decades ago in Popular Mechanics magazine (March 1938), which subsequently published the article in a how-to book on building several different kinds of boats. Also out of print, but the book is sometimes available on eBay, and you might be able to get the magazine article on Google books.

The WCHA journal "Wooden Canoe" published two articles about building the PM canoe, No. 7, summer, 1981, and no 134, April, 2006.

You might weant to try to run these down.

Again, check your private messages.

Greg

 

[zutefisk]

Google baidarka for skin on frame info.

 

[catumandos]

Hello everyone.
Followed the thread and this is my first respons on the site.
Just want to say, visit this link :
http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/LittleChief
Don't know, but this canoe does look simmilar to I think.

Keep that canoe paddling !!!

 

[genegene]

In the article it says to use Ferdico's Wing Dope & Edward Smith's Canoe Enamel.

When I get ready to add the canvas to the Canoe are these products something I should look at to properly seal and finish the canvas with. I am going to try and have the canvas multi colors instead of a one color finish.

I think that the Dope is going to tighten up the canvas and make it more durable before painting. Is this true?

Update on the Canoe.

Not much has been done this week except:

1) One of the Gunwale's replacement section pisces is cut and tested. I'm going to try and splice it together in the next day or two and then do the other side. Once those 2 parts are set in place I can replace the Stern Deck.

2) Contacted Ron Overstreet ( http://rgsplace.blogspot.com/ )who has the blueprints for the canoe for sale still, and am going to order the 16ft model prints for the parts that are going to be a real pain in the backside to copy from the broken parts.

Greg, I did read you P.M. and will get back to you on that in the next day or two. This week has been real hectic and I'm still getting over a bad case of dehydration from a hike i did on Sunday.

Gene G.

 

[Greg Nolan]

covering and painting SOF canoes

Gene --

The article that mentions Ferdico's Wing Dope & Edward Smith's Canoe Enamel appears to be from the 1930s or ‘40s -- so I would not be surprised if those brands no longer exist.

The Trailcraft instructions call simply for 2-3 coats of good oil-based paint on the canvas.

When I built a Trailcraft years ago, I varnished all the wood with a marine (spar) varnish, and painted the canvas after it was installed with a 2-part epoxy paint, with the idea that it would add to the durability of the canoe. I don’t think I would spend the money for such paint again -- a good marine enamel is certainly sufficient, and I believe that a good oil-based house paint would actually do the trick -- it is used by several forumites on their w/c canoes.

The canvas can be stretched tightly enough when installing it, and if there are a few intractable wrinkles, they can usually be eliminated by spraying a bit of water on them. I don’t think I would spend the money on airplane dope, but an outfit called Aircraft Spruce can probably give you the lowdown on modern dopes. (Dacron, not cotton, is the fabric of choice today for aircraft, and most fabric aircraft dopes and paints today are designed for use with Dacron, which is also used by some for covering canoes -- search "Dacron" to see what some of the folks here think).

You might want to take a look at the following threads on the forums, if you haven’t seen them yet:

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5501
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5548
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5328&highlight=sof
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=1038&highlight=sof

And there is a wealth of information on covering SOF boats on these sites:

http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/
http://www.qajaqusa.org/

And Platt Monfort's designs and thoughts on SOFs and their covering are certainly of interest: http://www.gaboats.com/

Using a filler on a SOF canoe covered with canvas is not usually done -- the canvas is too flexible, resulting in cracking of the filler. I don't know about airplane dope -- it might produce a smoother surface while still being flexible.

Hope you have gotten properly rehydrated -- but I know that hectic work can often get in the way of really important things like canoes, so no ruch in getting in touch.