Getting Started with Rib Replacement & Canvas

[Wounded Fox]

I am a few days away from buying a project canoe. It is listed in the classifieds here as 1974 OCTA 18'. The build slip says it is actually and "OTCA 18" which I understand was the telegraph code for Old Town Canoe. It needs some ribs -- still not sure exactly how many -- and canvas.

I have read here that rib replacement necessitates canvas replacement, which suggests to me that there are fasteners that go in through the planking into the ribs. I also know that the rails go on after the canvas, so it seems like the general process would be:

- Remove the rails, seats and thwarts
- Remove the canvas
- Bend one new rib for each that I need to replace, but don't remove more than one rib in an area at a time.
- After rib has dried in its new shape, remove the old rib, and attempt to replace it.
-- (As needed rebend the new rib until I get the correct fit)
- Repeat for each rib, until all the problems are replaced
- Attach new canvas
- Paint the new canvas
- Reattach the rails, seats, and thwarts

It sounds "old school" to ask this question, but is there a recommended book that lays this all out? Even if it was focused on new construction, knowing how it was supposed to go together new would probably help.

Is there anything special I need to consider with a canoe that has been exposed to salty water? (Chesapeake Bay, so brackish, not ocean water.)

How important is it to match the species of wood that was originally used? Obviously, the new ribs are going to look different than the original 50 year old ribs with any transparent treatment, but are there other considerations?

Older canoes that I looked at specified "Sitka Spruce" on the build tags, but this one does not specify. It seems strange that a Maine canoe builder would use so much wood from the Pacific Northwest -- Maine is known for having a lot of trees -- but not impossible.

Does anyone have recommended sources for canoe building wood (in hopefully small quantities) within driving distance of Virginia? I would rather see and select wood than buy it online, especially given the high cost of shipping large packages. So far, I have found Chesapeake Light Craft near Annapolis that has both Sitka Spruce in sizes that we could rip down into strips as well as several other species. Does anyone have other favorite wood suppliers in Maryland or Virginia?

I did try the FAQ, but "Help, I just bought and old wood and canvas canoe" was not one of them. Search has helped me with a lot of details on the ribs, but I didn't find anything that explained the big picture. All of the wood sources seem to have references from decades ago.

 

[Todd F]

You bring up great question, being not too far south of you in regards to supplies I may hit you up SEPCOR since I will likely go north to some solid suppliers for, well, supplies. Other will chime in regarding books etc, plenty out there, what I would recommend is posting any pics and a serial number if available to help the many folks on this site to chime in. You have certainly tapped into the right folks to help.

 

[Michael Grace]

Hi Fox. Your approach list is accurate. As for your questions, and the answer to the first will help you tremendously:

1. Is there a recommended book? Yes. The one many of us call "the Bible of cedar-canvas canoe building and restoration" is The Wood & Canvas Canoe by Stelmok and Thurlow. You can get it here:

The Wood & Canvas Canoe: A Complete Guide | WoodenCanoeHeritage

Author: Jerry StelmokRollin ThurlowNote: Hot off the Presses! Jerry and Rollin just had this must-have book reprinted with the assistance of the WCHA!! From the final decade of the 19th century until the mid 1950’s, the predominant small water craft for recreationists, summer camps, and...

www.woodencanoe.org

Another popular book is Mike Elliott's This Old Canoe. You can get it here:

This Old Canoe: How to Restore Your Wood Canvas Canoe | WoodenCanoeHeritage

Author: Mike ElliottWhen restoring a wood-canvas canoe, you don't work on it, you work with it. In This Old Canoe: How To Restore Your Wood-Canvas Canoe, Mike Elliott guides you through the process of bringing your classic heirloom back to life. He takes you step-by-step through all aspects of a...

www.woodencanoe.org

2. Is there anything special I need to consider with a canoe that has been exposed to salty water? Yes. Salt water corrodes (de-zincifies) brass fasteners. Because most cedar-canvas canoes are planked with very fine brass tacks, they can really suffer from exposure to salt. If you see green/blue/white discoloration of tack heads or white halos in the wood immediately around brass fasteners, then you may have a serious case of corrosion. The last few restorations I've done have required a lot of re-tacking and some replacement of brass screws, all because of salt damage.

3. How important is it to match the species of wood? It is not critical, but you'll find that the restoration looks better with matched wood. It is important to use species that are good for boatbuilding, and the original wood used was used for good reasons including lightness, rot resistance, toughness, bend-ability, beauty, and so on.

4. Sources for canoe building wood... One good method is to search using woodfinder.com. You can enter the species you're looking for and a maximum distance around your location and it will pull up all commercial suppliers listed who claim to stock the wood you need.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wounded Fox]

Thanks Michael, I have ordered both of those books.

Thanks especially for what to look for on the brass fasteners. Obviously that means more time and expense, but is it something that you would avoid at all cost? I suppose not, since you have done several... unless you do it professionally, in which case you do what the customer wants I suppose.

Todd, the serial number is #174117. I have seen the original build slip, but it doesn't have quite as much detail as some of the earlier build slips I have seen on some of the other boats.

 

[Wounded Fox]

@Michael Grace Do the white spots in these ribs appear to be indications of brass corrosion from exposure to salt?

 

[Worth Gretter]

Fox, you can get copper canoe tacks at Northwoods Canoe Co, and they specifically recommend them for salt water.

The two books mentioned, and this forum, will give you everything you need to know!

And one pitfall to avoid: my canoe restoration project has one rib that was replaced long ago. They bent it over the outside of the boat as people do, but it had bevelled edges and they left them facing up. So when the rib went in place, the bevelled edges faced down, toward the planking! Worst of all, they just went ahead and installed it! I didn't want to remove it, so I carefully used a chisel to change the bevel. The rib was a bit oversize to begin with, so that worked out fine.

Keep us posted. We all love to see progress.

-Worth

 

[Wounded Fox]

Thanks Worth. I might consider the copper canoe tacks. I can't promise the canoe will never again be used in salt water, but the primary use will be fresh. I was thinking of the virtual certainty that a canoe from St. Michael's Maryland (right on the Chesapeake Bay) has spent a good part of its life in saltwater. For its age and exposure, it looks to be in pretty good shape.

I also found myself looking at DB Gurney tacks. I love the story behind the tacks and the company, especially given the historical connection. Oh, I guess I didn't mention that yet. Part of the reason I am looking at a traditional WOODEN canoe is because it fits better with my Mountain Man hobby than an aluminum or plastic boat. A birchbark or rawhide leather canoe would be closer to perfectly period correct, but a traditional wooden canoe is getting a lot closer at least.

 

[Todd F]

Interested in the hobby you mention, Any details? Again, canoe looks interesting and look forward to what you do.

 

[Michael Grace]

Yes, Fox, the white spots on the interior of the canoe appear to be zinc halos from saltwater corrosion of the fasteners. The halos are not severe, though, and they would not be a deal breaker for me if I otherwise liked the canoe. If you refinish the canoe, the rib halos should largely disappear depending upon how you strip and clean the wood. The only way to really know the condition of the tacks is to spot check some by pulling them from the outside to see if they easily disintegrate. Of course this means removing the canvas, but you said the canoe needs new canvas. Worst case scenario you might have to do some re-tacking. The process (especially if extensive re-tacking is required) is tedious and time consuming but it is not otherwise very costly, and you can quickly learn to be effective and efficient.

All that said, check out the WCHA's classified ads section to see the number of wooden canoes available from this one site only. There are many more available through other resources. You can find nice canoes if you just keep your eyes open, and sometimes you can find great bargains on great canoes. Still, the bit shown in the photo above appears to be a nice canoe outfitted for sailing.

Enjoy this one if you decide to get it, and enjoy the hunt if you keep looking. And by the way, there are birchbark canoes to be had, though they are fewer and usually significantly more expensive than most cedar-canvas canoes.

 

[Wounded Fox]

Interested in the hobby you mention, Any details? Again, canoe looks interesting and look forward to what you do.

The American Mountain Men are a brotherhood of men who seek to learn the authentic history of the fur trade era -- essentially 1800 to 1840 -- when trappers and explorers headed west to the Rocky Mountains. They learn by doing, and by studying original sources wherever possible. I am not AMM, but I have attended a couple of events and I am hoping to be invited to join at some point. In my current profile picture, the shirt, pants, braces ("suspenders") were all handmade by me. (hand cut, and hand sewn). I am learning a lot as I go.

Their primary methods of transportation were horseback, followed by canoe, followed by travelling on foot. While a canoe can be sort of expensive, horses today are much more expensive. As I learned on my last "mountain man style canoe trip", a canoe is much more practical than travel by foot given the heavier weight of some of their equipment. As much as I love modern backpacking, and I intend to lighten my MM kit to where I can "backpack" with it, a canoe is wonderful for trips that are along waterways.

One of the AMM requirements (if I am invited to join) is a 5+ day trek by horseback, canoe/bullboat, or on foot. I am still planning possible routes for "on foot", but I am thinking I would enjoy doing it by canoe. I have done a number of longer canoe and/or kayak trips, but always modern, not pre-1840's style.

Oh, and for anyone who is looking for references to early wood/canvas canoes, the invention of wood/canvas canoes seems to go back only to 1856, which means they would not have been common until a while after that. I found that elsewhere in the forums here. I am tempted to do a skin on frame canoe at some point -- with real animal skin -- but that would be a much bigger undertaking.

 

[Wounded Fox]

Yes, Fox, the white spots on the interior of the canoe appear to be zinc halos from saltwater corrosion of the fasteners. The halos are not severe, though, and they would not be a deal breaker for me if I otherwise liked the canoe. If you refinish the canoe, the rib halos should largely disappear depending upon how you strip and clean the wood. The only way to really know the condition of the tacks is to spot check some by pulling them from the outside to see if they easily disintegrate. Of course this means removing the canvas, but you said the canoe needs new canvas. Worst case scenario you might have to do some re-tacking. The process (especially if extensive re-tacking is required) is tedious and time consuming but it is not otherwise very costly, and you can quickly learn to be effective and efficient.

Thanks. I wouldn't have picked up on that without your your comment. It is good to know that they don't look severe. I will certainly plan to check some of them.

All that said, check out the WCHA's classified ads section to see the number of wooden canoes available from this one site only. There are many more available through other resources. You can find nice canoes if you just keep your eyes open, and sometimes you can find great bargains on great canoes. Still, the bit shown in the photo above appears to be a nice canoe outfitted for sailing.

Enjoy this one if you decide to get it, and enjoy the hunt if you keep looking. And by the way, there are birchbark canoes to be had, though they are fewer and usually significantly more expensive than most cedar-canvas canoes.

Yes, this canoe is from the Classifieds on this site which I have been watching for a while. I missed out on one that was much closer to complete by waiting, but this one is a much shorter drive. By doing more of the work myself, I will better understand how the whole thing goes together.

 

[MGC]

If you haven't already committed to that canoe, you should plan to give it a good looking over.
Personally, I would not consider buying a canoe that has salt blooms. It's one thing to refurbish such a boat for a client, but given how readily available wood and canvas canoes are, unnecessary to deal with if you are a bit selective when you purchase. The canoe listing does not include the sailing kit so any comparable Old Town should do the trick.
I see a note about using copper tacks as a way to sort this. It is a fact that the copper tacks are not subject to the de-zincification...but for a boat that already has this problem, using copper is somewhat pointless unless you plan to replace all of the tacks.
Copper tacks are best used to restore the old hulls that were built with copper, mostly dating back to the early 1900's and the 1880's and 90's. That is what I use the ones I have for. Copper tacks are a bit scarce in supply so I tend to use them sparingly. I would never consider using them on such a new hull. Of course, to each their own.

 

[samb]

Personally, I would not consider buying a canoe that has salt blooms. It's one thing to refurbish such a boat for a client, but given how readily available wood and canvas canoes are, unnecessary to deal with if you are a bit selective when you purchase.

If only that were true in the UK!

Sam

 

[MGC]

If only that were true in the UK!

Sam

I have never forgotten the lessons learned from my first large Healey restoration. Miles of rust, cutout metal and welded panels, buckets of body putty, years of sanding, gazillions of dollars and then years later, little rust bubbles popping up on the was gorgeous British Racing green... I swore that from then on I would spend the money on the front to buy a better car rather buy the deal of a lifetime to invest a lifetimes savings to hide the damages of hard years of neglect.
Canoes are pretty much the same. Unless they are something scarce, there should always be options to avoid dealing with gross neglect. Granted, our market is not the same as yours. But, I would guess that you would know better than to buy a rust bucket big Healey much as I know to avoid an Old Town (or Morris/what have you) that has spent its life in brackish water.
When I surf the tide pools in a canoe, I use my Royalex OT and when I'm done, I wash it off with the hose.

 

[samb]

I certainly would avoid any rust bucket car now although there was a time when that was all I could afford!
Like you, my Royalex boat comes out when salt water is involved.
Luckily now I have time to do what I enjoy, and that is bringing old wooden canoes back to life. Last month I bought the first wood canvas canoe that I had seen / was available in the UK, in two years. The extra cost of brass tacks imported from the USA is the only extra expense for the salt damage. My time is free when I'm enjoying myself!

 

[MGC]

My time is free when I'm enjoying myself!

This.
If I ever tracked the time I put into one of these old boats, I would probably stop working on them. I am always in awe of anyone who manages to make a living off of restoring canoes. There are no shortcuts. The time goes in even if you are a pro. Restoration at any cost for sentimental reasons must be behind some of the jobs.
As I write, I note that yesterday I decided to take a look at several places where canoes are listed. There are an overwhelming number available. Some are rough, some are perfect, many are over-priced, a few are deals. I was also talking with someone yesterday about a small fleet of canoes they are interested in selling, including one exceedingly rare one. Our market is indeed very different.

 

[Wounded Fox]

If you haven't already committed to that canoe, you should plan to give it a good looking over.
Personally, I would not consider buying a canoe that has salt blooms. It's one thing to refurbish such a boat for a client, but given how readily available wood and canvas canoes are, unnecessary to deal with if you are a bit selective when you purchase.

Thank you @MGC for making me think this over carefully before I commit to such a large project. Between your comments (which I initially resented! Hah!) and reading quickly through This Old Canoe, I have decided to think about this more carefully before I start such a large project. I have too many things going on right now to realistically tackle the work I saw in This Old Canoe just to properly strip the interior, let alone all the rest.

As I write, I note that yesterday I decided to take a look at several places where canoes are listed. There are an overwhelming number available. Some are rough, some are perfect, many are over-priced, a few are deals. I was also talking with someone yesterday about a small fleet of canoes they are interested in selling, including one exceedingly rare one. Our market is indeed very different.

Having combed over the classifieds here, raising my price range and expanding the distance I would willing to drive to about 8 hours one way, I have found one that should be ready to go for $1200. Even given the higher up front cost and the longer drive, it looks like it will give me canoe that I am looking for with less time and money. Especially less time.

 

[MGC]

Whatever your choice, I'm sure that you will end up with a boat that is superior to what you start with. That's how it goes.
It is wise to make your first one a bit less of a challenge, but even if you take on a real train wreck, you will most certainly make it better. It may take longer. You might have to deal with some more complicated issues, but eventually you would certainly come out on top. I'm constantly amazed at how well some of the boats show on this site turn out. Even beginner have knocked out some first class work.
What I hate to see is someone getting excited about working on one of these old boats and then getting stuck right out of the gate. It happens. If you frequent this site, you will see folks checking in to learn the history of a canoe and then 5 or 10 years later someone else asking about the same boat.
I tend to seriously consider anything within 6 hours and if it's the right canoe will go much farther for one. If you have decent racks, it's not much trouble to haul one a few hundred miles or more. Just make sure that before you buy or drive that you look at lots of pictures.

 

[MGC]

Check your PM's. I sent you a link to a fine canoe for a super price.
It's a 17 footer instead of the 18 you were looking at.
Most folks are looking for 16's but in my opinion, the lines of a 17 are almost always better.