Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware)

Mark Adams said:
I haven't "outed" the seller because I don't really think these forums are the place for the airing of dirty laundry.

I support Mark's position on this matter and have sent Paul Miller a private message naming who 'lost' my Carleton tag. Feel free to contact me privately if you want this information. I also want to add that Ray Schell was the WCHA member who originally set this up. He gave me another original Carleton tag after hearing that mine had been 'lost' so there are some very honorable people around. He is still looking for some original ones to go on his canoes so please let us know if you have one to spare. Thanks,

Benson
 
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We move from the topic of canoes to the topic of human nature and man's responsibility to their fellow man.

I agree that we don't speak ill of someone who has a disagreeable personal habit that harms no other.

The question then become where do we draw the line when the personal trait or habit harms others and what kind of harm? financial? physical, psychological? how much? to what degree?

Would you want to know when the child molester moves into your grandchildren's neighborhood? Do we speak ill of the child molester when we warn the neighborhood? I raise an example on the distant other end of the scale, but there is a scale and each must draw the line somewhere.

Do we than judge the person who draws the line at a place other than ours? The ex-police officer who has experienced the victim's pain at the expense of the criminal's 2nd chances may draw the line in a different place.

Happy paddling
 
Add my name also to the list of those who will help inspect, send photo's or secure any information required for other WCHA members in the Ohio area.

Ric
 
CAVEAT EMPTOR (with apologies to Blue Viking)

There are a number of valid reasons for not wanting to publish openly the name of someone who may demonstrably have acted in bad faith or worse. Fear of being sued for defamation is not the least of these -- and while truth may be a defense, it is not cheap or pleasant to have to defend against a law suit (I write as a litigator who primarily does defensive work). A suit can be fairly easy to bring, and a sleazy business person might bring such a suit just to be able to claim that he is defending his "good reputation." An further, if by "up north" Mark meant Canada, that adds a further complication -- the law of defamation is likely to be considerably different there (and if like British law, much more favorable to someone claiming defamation).

An undefended suit is likely to lead to a default judgment, which can lead to all sorts of difficulties, including a serious negative hit on a credit rating.

Finally, I personally would be leery of using the internet or any form of writing when discussing another's reputation -- I would prefer face-to-face or telephone.

On the other points of advice in Mark's first posting -- asking questions, lots of them, even dumb ones, is good advice. You might get a better picture of the item for sale, and the way a seller responds can give some insight into how he deals with things -- openly and candidly, or careful to the point of weaseling, or ignorant, or . . ..

Getting things in writing may be of some help, but probably not much, unless the seller is acting in good faith anyway. While something well-written may bring clarity and certainty, a badly-crafted writing can introduce ambiguity. A writing's chief use is in a law suit, and as I have said above, you don't want to be in a law suit. Unless you can proceed in a local small claims court, a suit is just too expensive and time consuming to resolve the sort of disputes that are likely to arise around the purchase of a canoe.

The best advice, I would think, is to get lots of current pictures. In this day of digital cameras and the internet, getting an adequate number of detailed photos should be easy, and if a seller is unwilling to provide them, that could be a sign of problems.

I recently bid on an ebay canoe where the seller described several non-fatal problems, most of which either needed no photo or were shown in the listing photos. He did mention a scarf joint that needed regluing, and there was no picture. When asked, he did send a good detail picture, which showed me both that he was not hiding anything, and that the problem was one I could live with (alas, I was the second-highest bidder).

If you can get a trusted person to look, that would be good also, although that may create other problems, as noted above. It is also not necessarily easy to set up an inspection, as I found when trying to take a look at a boat for Denis and Kathy.

If time allows, I would be willing to look at a canoe in the New York City area.

So the starting point certainly remains -- buyer beware!
 
It is indeed buyer beware.

There are actually some folks that post and advertise here and sell on Ebay that I have noticed are less than forthcoming with information. They really make you work to get the the straight skinny.
It does not take too long to figure out if someone is trying to pull a fast one. Evasive incomplete answers to simple and direct questions should trigger concern. Glorious adds with lot's hype and hyperbole also can mask problems. It is certainly buyer beware. That said, it is really not appropriate to out these rats in a public forum. Do your homework and deal with the issue and the individual directly. Their reputations will eventually match their actions.
I am willing to look canoes over in the Rochester NY area.
 
A follow up

I finally had a chance to "tear into" the canoe I described above. The problems were not nearly as severe as I had initially thought and described. In fact, there is a canoe from 1904 in the Adirondack Museum that has the same type stem arrangement. The interior stem is still in place on my canoe, a fact which was revealed on taking the decks off. There are still issues with the canoe, but again, not as severe as I had feared.

I am afraid that I went off a bit half cocked in my initial post. I still feel that there wasn't total disclosure, but what I got is a canoe that has been around for 100 years or so. You are bound to have some blemishes in a canoe of that vintage. I am not nearly as unhappy with my purchase now as I was a month ago. I will write the person I got the canoe from an apology as well. I feel I have cast false aspersions on the seller, and I encourage those who asked to please disregard my initial, volatile, post.
 
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Most of the interesting people I have met over the years have been strongly opinionated, intellectually curious, and a little bit crazy. Perhaps that's why I enjoy the WCHA so much.
 
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