Canoe Prices

[Dave Wermuth]

About once a month I wade into ebay auctions. It seems to me, that on ebay at least, canoes that do sell, are selling at pretty low prices. For example, one of our members' Chestnut 22' canoe in great shape sold for less than half what I would have expected. (apologies to the Chestnut's seller, whose name I cannot recall).

And I keep seeing the same basket cases with prices that are way high.

I was wondering if other folks have made similar or different observations of the wood canoe market these days, and if it correlates to overall economic health.

 

[Dan Miller]

I think it has as much to do with the venue as anything else - it is hard to evaluate condition without a firsthand inspection, and it is difficult to stuff a canoe in a box to mail it. This things have always conspired to keep canoe prices low on Ebay, in my opinion.

 

[David McDaniel]

I think also people are getting tired of ebay, I know that I am. I seldom go there any more!

Just saying!

.....Dave

 

[nickb]

Relatedly (hopefully not derailing the original intent of this thread) it seems like all the canoes I see on Craigslist are priced pretty inexpensively, and any "canoe wanted" postings usually express a desire for a super cheap option. Admittedly, most canoes on CL are not wooden (here in the midwest anyway), and if they are, they are older strippers. But the occasional wood and canvas canoe comes up periodically, and I often see the listing languish on Craigslislt for quite some time. I know I sold a used wood canvas canoe through Craigslist once and after a long time with little response, I too had to settle for less than I had originally hoped.

I realize both eBay and Craigslist probably aren't going to attract, generally, an informed buying population (informed in the sense of having an accurate perception of a crafted wooden canoe's real worth) but both sites are pretty heavily used generally, and I sometimes wonder what this does to the widespread perception of a canoe's value. In other words, would repeatedly seeing canoes (of any composition) be listed for $400 or under negatively affect the average customer's willingness to shift their reality to include a handcrafted canoe for 10 times that amount. For those of us who know and appreciate the work involved, it's a no brainer. But to the average Joe-bag-of-doughnuts (who probably does not know about that difference)?

I suppose under the same line of thinking, if you can go in to an outdoor shop (Gander Mountain or Cabella's etc) and get a brand new "plastic" of brand ______ (name your company) for sometimes as inexpensive as Craigslist prices, perhaps it does the same thing? I know those customers are probably different from those looking for wooden canoes, so perhaps this argument is flawed in that regard. But for your average fisherman/paddler/dude-off-the-street, who is somewhat strapped for cash (I know there's an awful lot of foreclosed homes around here, anyway) they're not going to buy a wooden canoe for what it's really worth. They're going to go with a cheaper option.

Or maybe I'm crazy. There have probably always been some variation of more inexpensive options (and are for many other products as well). Perhaps the issue, as always, is effectively educating your buying public as to why those particular products (in this case wooden canoes) are worth what they are. And, as many have always said, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it,yes?

 

[MGC]

For quite a while now, Ebay has been a haven for delusional pricing, especially where wooden canoes are concerned. Interestingly, they do sell from time to time and often for more than they are worth. Why? Ebay reaches an enormous market when compared to more traditional (before the internet) marketing ever did.
The canoe advertised in the local penny-saver or press used to reach a local audience. Ebay changed that.
Ebay reached an audience that had been waiting for these old canoes to become available. Where many of us had been locating boats in barns and boathouses and through a lengthy "courting" process, here was a place where anyone could take that old clunker and sell it to a national audience.
WCHA members picked up on that and bought up a lot of the good stuff, often paying more than canoes may have otherwise sold for as we "increased our fleets".
Sellers saw the golden ticket and started to mark up the prices. Members also unloaded boats that they no longer wanted....for far more than they were worth.

Members here stunk up the auctions by posting "look what I found" links and further drove up prices and to a limited extent interest.
We even started lurking and educating the sellers by telling them what they had, validating ages, estimating values etc...essentially doing the sellers work for them and pushing ask prices beyond realism.

Why are CL prices more "normal"? Simply because most folks that sell there are not influenced by unrealistic prompting and sell for what they believe is right priced...and unlike Ebay where we have stunk up the well. With CL our members have not reached out as much to drive valuations up. Let's keep it that way.

To a certain extent we even bought into the fantasy prices. Frankly, the audience for a 22 foot wooden canoe should be pretty limited. Owning a 20 footer I can attest that unless you have a very specific purpose for owing a big canoe, they don't come down out of the rafters too often. I think that boat went for a realistic price.
Wooden canoes (except the rare ones) are a bit of a money pit. We are all caught up in the idea that if we put 20 ribs, 100 feet of planking and 3 quarts of paint and varnish on a hulk that it is suddenly worth what a new build would cost. Not so...look at what Jerry or Rollin's canoes sell for two years after they leave the shop and you'll begin to get the picture.

We buy or own these for love of craft and hobby...mostly..if the expectations stray too far from that disappointment is right around the corner.

 

[pklonowski]

But if anything is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for it (or outbid the competition for it), isn't that what it's worth? At least, to the purchaser?

I'm amazed at the prices some of these canoes bring in... I can't imagine putting that much cash into a canoe. But I'd sure like to be the guy who finds the shell in reasonable shape in a barn, restores it, and gets the mother lode for it. Not something I'd bank on, but it allows for some fun speculation.

 

[Gil Cramer]

Everything, no matter what it is, is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay. If the seller and buyer agree on the price, then the price is not too high nor too low. That price is the value of that item to those two people. That's the free market. Whether I THINK that price is too high or too low is not important in the least to the transaction.

I've heard of canoes that sell for lots more than I thought that they were worth, and lots less than I thought that they were worth. Since I was neither the buyer or seller, the price was simply a topic of conversation. A local farmer that I know well recently bought 100 acres of land for $7300/ acre. I thought that was extravagant, but he obviously, thought it was a good buy. More power to him.

 

[Benson Gray]

We even started lurking and educating the sellers by telling them what they had, validating ages, estimating values etc...essentially doing the sellers work for them and pushing ask prices beyond realism.

I will try to educate eBay and other sellers when a canoe's description has been exaggerated on the assumption everyone is better off if things are being correctly presented. I sent a message today to the seller of an Old Town canoe on eBay that is listed as "over 100 years old" with a copy of the build record showing that it shipped in 1931. This may be doing the seller's work but it occasionally results in more realistic prices.

The "delusional pricing" doesn't seem limited to eBay or canoes. My personal favorite is the birch bark canoe on eBay that has been as high as $35,000 and is currently down to $13,000.

Benson

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Mine is the $59,000 Duluth pack. IIRC, it's been listed for several years on and off by now.

Dan

The "delusional pricing" doesn't seem limited to eBay or canoes. My personal favorite is the birch bark canoe on eBay that has been as high as $35,000 and is currently down to $13,000.

Benson

 

[Gil Cramer]

Ebay once was dominated by individuals selling an occasional item. It has now developed into mostly a business sales venue. As Dan Miller indicated earlier in this thread, canoes usually don't bring very high prices because of transportation costs and condition evaluation difficulty. I have both bought and sold canoes and boats on Ebay, but never at what I thought were inflated prices. I sell on Ebay to get rid of a boat or canoe that I no longer want- usually because the restoration is finished and I don't want it around. I work on canoes, but don't collect them. I buy on Ebay when something is available that I want to work on, or it is located close to where I'll be delivering or want to visit.
Almost NEVER is the boat or canoe in as good condition as it appears in the photos. Since I love working on canoes and boats I'm not disappointed when I see the item in person. Photos STILL LIE!!!! My wife loves to go to Saugatuck, so anything located close to there is automatically worth a lot more than it would be somewhere else.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Along those lines, the "100 year old" eBay canoe that Benson mentions above is offered with an initial bid of $650 and a "buy it now" price of $800 -- for a "recently restored" canoe

-- BUT--

the "recent restoration" did not repair the cane of at least one of the seats and has left the varnish of at least one deck and the gunnels in need of work (and this is shown in the pics -- who knows what is not shown? ), and it is "pick up only" -- from Whitby, Ontario -- convenient for some, but pretty inconvenient ( 9+ hours and 500+ miles one way) for me, were I interested in it. Disregarding the 2 days' travel time, I would have to pay attention to $150 or more for gasoline, plus a night's cost in a motel, were I to consider bidding/buying this canoe.

And with a second look at the photos, the seat pictured has machine cane -- not original in either 1931 or a hundred years ago.

As always, caveat emptor!

 

[nigelphoto]

Ebay UK

Over this side of the pond non-wood canoe prices on ebay have really held up. For instance I was recently in the market for a lightweight solo, and the 2 year old OT Pack for which I put in what I thought was a reasonable bid at half the final price, went for £635 equivalent ($975) when the full retail in the UK for brand new is only £725 ($1,115). Wood canoes of any description are very rare over here - we have just two manufacturers who between them produce 12 boats a year and imports are extremely expensive. My own Alain Rhéaume built 15'8" Huron model was last sold in the UK in 2008 for £2,800 ($4,300) and I believe the identical American Traders model today sells in the US for $3,270. In the last six months I have only seen a couple of wood boats on ebay, and one was a genuine Chestnut Prospector in pretty ratty condition which went at £1,200 ($1,845) but I don't know how that would relate to US prices?