Can you mix stain with varnish?

Howie

Wooden Canoe Maniac
Can I mix TotalBoat Gleam varnish (a "classic Tung oil marine spar varnish with high solids content) with Minwax stain products (a "penetrating oil-based wood stain"). I believe Morris & Veazie (as well as PennYan) used tinted varnish. I'm in the process of stripping a Veazie and want a lighter version of the color it had before I stripped.
 
The link below has a suggestion from many years ago.

Benson


 
I have on a couple occasions mixed stain with varnish when I wasn’t happy with the stain match from new wood to old wood. Maybe a rib or two or a spliced tip or something. Always over coating it with straight varnish.
I wouldn’t recommend doing it for the whole canoe.
I’m not sure, but me thinks that the stain may interfere with the integrity of the varnish.
If you want a lighter look, maybe use Denis’ recipe without the walnut. Just a thought.
 
People can get pretty entrenched and animated on this topic so this is just an opinion, for what it's worth. I use stains and dyes judiciously and carefully to try to match new wood to old wood, but I never like the wholesale use of stains on entire canoes including Morris canoes. The stains usually muddy up the appearance of the wood and they always look artificial (to me). The gorgeous patina of antique wood, clean and clear under varnish, is far, far more beautiful to my eye. Even if we try to match the color of wood to old stains (Morris stain would be over 100 years old now), I think it's impossible. The chemistry of the stain may have changed, any varnish on top of it has yellowed, and the wood underneath has gained patina... so what did the stain really look like back in the day? But if you like stains, go for it.

Unfortunately I've passed on some otherwise gorgeous canoes solely because of stains. I have one unusual canoe that I really love, but at the same time I truly hate that at some point it was stained. One day I'll refinish it and hope, hope, hope that I can get the stain off of it. I know this doesn't really address your question, Howie. Just an opinion, if it has any value.
 
I'll line up with Michael on this, mostly. I also prefer to see the patina and color of old original wood. I also own one very interesting canoe that was once stained and for that particular boat, that is part of its history. When I finally/eventually get around to restoring it, I will not alter the stain. That's a one-time case.
Morris and Veazie are a different topic for me. They were stained from the outset. Any aging and patina is enhancing what has always been stained wood. From my perspective, that coloration is a characteristic of Morris/Veazie canoes that is representative. I lean towards trying to match that color that is so classically Morris. Were it any other canoe I would let the wood shine through, but I would stain a Morris.
 
Howie, your question was about mixing stain and varnish. Most of the replies are about whether to use stain at all.
My response to your question would be, why not just stain first and then varnish, instead of mixing?
 
Michael: I've just finished the 2nd stripping, and when I pulled it into the garage to dry (see pic) I said to myself this is the look I want. So I'm thinking I'm with you. Unless it looks too garish with the already stained ash inner rails & decks. I'll try some varnish in the under-deck areas first to see when color it turns with varnish though.
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Worth: Yeah, you're right. I was thinking that if I used stain-tinted varnish I could strip it if I didn't like it. But I feared that this might damage the varnish and/or it's adhesion properties as Dave pointed out.
 
The nice thing about tinting varnish is that it will be easier for someone later to remove the stain if they so desire, as Howie just said.

Howie, the color of the canoe looks wonderful to me eye as it is now. I agree with you about staining the new wood, because unstained it would just be too light for the aged patina of the hull. Below I'll add some images of a Morris I restored (with no stain). As you already know, the amber color of most varnishes builds a richer and richer color as you add more coats, so your already beautiful hull will only get richer and more beautiful as you varnish.

This is a great example of “It’s your canoe; do what you want.” You should choose to stain or not as you see fit, understanding that there is no possible way to know what a stained Morris looked like when it came out of the factory, and no possible way to replicate the look of that brand new, stained Morris on a canoe that is now more than a century old. I respect Dennis Kallery's commitment to devising a stain he liked, and he did so using remnants of ancient stain on an unmolested (but of course old) Morris, if I remember correctly. But we don’t know what stain Morris used or what it looked like when it was new and on new cedar. On tope of that, any stain concoction made today and applied to century-plus-year-old white cedar will not look like what did on new cedar back in Morris’ day (that is, “back in the day of B.N. Morris” as opposed to “Morris Day and The Time” ).

Don’t get me wrong – color matters very much to me. I’ve seen old wooden canoes that were truly bleached out during restoration, and they look nothing like I think an antique canoe should (in my opinion). But given that there is no way to make a canoe look like what it did when new (because we just don’t know and because the wood has changed over so many years), and because stains can sometimes obscure the beauty of old wood, I personally would not choose to stain a Morris.

Those in the discussion here don’t need this, but for anyone new to wooden canoes who might be reading, check out the links vs attached images. The gorgeous new white cedar canoes built in Rollin’s and Jerry’s shops and those of others have light, honey-colored interiors. The restored Morris shown below has a much richer color simply because of its age, but it has no stain. Both at antique boat shows and on the water, quite a few people have asked about this very canoe, “Wow, what kind of stain did you use?”, because they see the rich color and assume is has been stained. If stain were applied to new white cedar and the same stain were applied to century-old white cedar, the results would be completely distinct. Staining old cedar will not produce the look of a new canoe coming out of the Morris shop in 1908. But different people like different things, so go for what feels best and enjoy it. It’s your canoe.


One of my Morris canoes after first varnish on the hull (but not on gunwales, decks or coamings yet):
14021_first_varnish_sm.jpg


The final product, all original wood, stripped, cleaned/bleached (Te-Ka), and varnished - but no stain anywhere:
Grace_Chamaeleon_after2.jpg

Grace_Chamaeleon_after1b.jpg
 
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Michael, what products did you use that darkened and brought up so much color in that wood? It looks great. I would also avoid using stain if the end result is as perfect as what you achieved.
And point well made, we do not know what a factory new Morris finish really looked like, only what it now looks like after one hundred and ten or more years of aging and use.
 
Hi Mike. Nothing but varnish. It was a gray boat when I got it, all parts there, somewhat disassembled but complete. I simply stripped it (though there was very little varnish left; just gray wood), used Te-Ka, and varnished with Epifanes Clear Gloss. The mahogany is particularly rich. In the photos above there isn't good light on the ribs and planking so it's not quite as dark as it appears, but it is much darker after many coats than in the photo with only the first thinned varnish coat. You know how it is - every canoe is different. The way different ways wooden canoes were cared for over the course of time must have a big effect on the patina that it ultimately acquires. I always remember the photo on the back cover of Jerry & Rollin's book - several restored wooden canoes all in the same light but each with its own distinct patina.
 
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