4' model canoe

Paul Yonkers Jr.

Curious about Wooden Canoes
I am looking for information regarding a 4' long Old Town model canoe I own.
Are there serial numbers stamped into these canoes similar to full size Old Town canoes?
I am looking for advice on current value and finding a buyer.
 
Are there serial numbers stamped into these canoes similar to full size Old Town canoes?

Yes, the picture below shows the stamp in one. However, only a small subset of these models got serial numbers. The value is largely dependent on the condition and appearance. Can you provide some pictures?

Benson



89161.jpg
 
Paul,

You've come top the right place! Between Benson and Roger Young - author of "Little Things that Matter" and a frequent contributor to these forums- you should get all your questions answered! Roger also has his own website: antiquemodelcanoes.com

I'd love to see pictures, too.

Good Luck!


Bruce
 
Thank you Benson and Bruce. Here are some pictures taken with a cell phone. I can't find a serial number.
 

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This was probably made around 1908 based on the decal colors, arched decks, and seat cane style. The decal from a documented 1908 Old Town is shown below for comparison. Models from this era didn't have serial numbers. My guess is that it would probably bring $10K to $20K in a high end auction. The link below shows a similar Kennebec model that sold in that range today. Roger Young is better at valuing these and he will probably be along shortly. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do,

Benson




1908-7262.jpg
 
Hello Paul, Benson and Bruce:
Well, what a wonderful, early 4' Old Town display sample you have, Paul. Thanks for posting the photos, and welcome to the WCHA. Having had a chance to read through Benson's comments, I whole-heartedly agree with much of what has been said. When it comes to OT sample canoes, both 4' and 8' lengths, it does not seem to have been their practice to often mark or stamp serial numbers in the sample models. In my search through scans of the OT build records, I could only find references to 8' samples beginning around 1912, and 4' items not recorded until 1922. Record-keeping for their small canoes pretty much disappeared after 1930. In all, I found records for only 35 of the 8'-ers, and 35 of the 4'-ers. However, we know from other company documents (mostly uncovered by Benson) that wood-canvas samples were made both before 1912 and after 1930. My best 'guesstimate' is that likely 70 or so of the 4' pieces were made, and probably about 50 of the 8' length. Only a handful of the currently known wood-canvas 4' length can be reliably linked by paint design, number punch or pencil markings to an actual build card. So, not to worry about the lack of a visible serial number; absence is more the rule than the exception. A few fiberglass samples were turned out in the 1960's. Latterly, samples have been made by Jerry Stelmok of Island Falls Canoe Co. under contract to Old Town Canoe.

I agree with Benson that your model is very early on in OT production history. Benson has pointed out the early form of the bow decal and the basket-weave seat caning. I think we could add the 'high-peaked' stems and steep shear line; the thin, flat stem bands; and the closed gunnels in support of an early production date. The model does seem to lack any brand name lettering along the sides. For a sample of such early origin one might expect to see "Genuine OLD TOWN CANOE CO. Canoes" just below the rails.

Your model appears to be in quite good condition overall, and not having suffered abuse or poor handling. The bottom looks sound and not badly worn; the interior and seats appear excellent, though the rear thwart seems to be missing. There is always a risk trying to assess these things based on photos alone, without an 'in hand', close-up inspection. Judging by what I can see, overall the condition seems quite good, even somewhat better than average. 4' OT samples have sold in recent years anywhere from a low of around $7,000 to a high of $30,000. A few 'beaters' may even have gone below that. On the other hand, it takes a very pristine, close to 'mint' sample to reach the high end. Yours has a few blemishes, but nothing serious that I can see. The stem band at one end needs attention; there is a mysterious light green rectangular spot on the hull. These are cosmetic and fairly easily fixed to improve appearances, but can be left to a buyer, if he/she so chooses. I am assuming the paint is original. My gut feeling is that you could/should expect a reasonable 'floor' price in the $15,000 range, and it would not surprise me to see it bring $20,000 at a decent high-end auction. There are a couple of auctioneers I could suggest if you wish to go that route. I believe there are collectors out there who would welcome the chance to add it to their collection. It will likely cost you 15% or so seller's commission; a buyer will be expected to pay likely 20% buyer's premium. You also want to take your time and choose the right sale, both for timing and clientele. This may meaning waiting a bit, and also your payout will only occur after a successful sale and then several more weeks before you receive your proceeds. Of course, you can always advertise it yourself and sell direct. The WCHA "Classified" section of the Forum is a good place to start. You also could try social media, i.e., online marketplace sites. Just be wary of scammers and fraudsters.

Benson has noted the sale today of a 69" Kennebec sample from the 1920's. Looks to me as if the winning bid was $14,000 plus 20% buyer's premium of $2,800, for a total purchase price of $16,800, not including any state sales tax. Personally, I think that piece was 'under appreciated', and could even have brought another $4K, or so. It previously once belonged to a mutual friend of both Benson and I. It was estimated pre-sale to bring between $15,000 and $25,000. Knowing that item well and being intimately familiar with it, I truly felt it would sell at mid-estimate range. Someone got a very good buy. Kennebec made only 60 recorded samples, all between 1916 and 1926. They were a major competitor of Old Town Canoe. Old Town samples have always outsold Kennebec samples; OT is always in higher market demand. This reinforces my thinking of your potential sale value; $15,000 - $20,000, and more likely closer to the top than the bottom.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Roger
 
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Hi, Bruce..........I have an Old Town with the serial 8992 , an Ideal, sent to Rochester , NY in July of 1908. So we do know that boat is going to show up in the time close to mine. The decal apparently was only used in the year 1908 , but the OT sheet will tell you. Very nice example, WOW.
Dave
 
Hi Roger, thank you for your reply and all the detailed information you provided. I would like to try advertising the canoe in the WCHA Classifieds. Is it appropriate to direct message you for cleaning and presentation advice before listing for sale or are there resources you can direct me to. Thanks to all for your input.
Paul
 
Message me if you are considering a “preservation” that will be sensitive to not looking “restored”. I would wanna fix some things like the canvas pulling short of the end and some rail cap repair. Benson and Roger will attest to my experience with this…..
 
I agree with Dave. Chris was a model maker for Johnson Controls and has become the "go to" guy for "preserving" models. In my estimation , he is the best. His only fault is drinking Corona beer.
 
The first time with Corona was after the South Haven boat show. We were in the bar overlooking the river when you ordered a corona. That was before smoking was banned, and the only corona I knew was a cigar.
 
Hi Roger, thank you for your reply and all the detailed information you provided. I would like to try advertising the canoe in the WCHA Classifieds. Is it appropriate to direct message you for cleaning and presentation advice before listing for sale or are there resources you can direct me to. Thanks to all for your input.
Paul
Hi Paul:
You're very welcome. Happy to help with background info. As a WCHA member, I believe you are entitled to advertise your sample model free. You don't need to clear anything with me. You're welcome to use anything I have said. Folks here have a pretty good handle on and appreciation for display sample models. They'll likely be aware of this thread or will learn of it. I wish you good luck with your sale, If you do decide to clean it up a bit first, you will likely increase its value somewhat over its present state. Chris Pearson would be a good guy to chat with first even if just to help you decide your best approach. I'm available to chat by messenger or phone. You might wish to have a look at my website: antiquemodelcanoes.com which has many photos, or refer to my recent book: "Little things that matter", which speaks to my 35-year chase to collect a number of very early US and Canadian canoe factory samples. Cheers, Roger

PS: I agree with Chris Pearson that tightening up the loose canvas would be an excellent step and increase the aesthetic appeal as well as solidify its condition. His other points have merit and are certainly worth considering. If done by you, it increases your investment, but supports your asking price. Or, you can ask a little less and give your purchaser the option to improve it. All these things are negotiable. In the end, a successful sale is always set by what a willing buyer is prepared to pay, and what you are prepared to take. Markets do fluctuate and circumstances are often unique to each sale. R
 
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