old town canoe - wooden

[macdouga]

Just taking a look at an Old Town Canoe we inherited with a property we purchased on Walloon Lake. The serial number is 133761-18 and if anyone has insights into what that means, I would be greatly appreciative. The canoe is leaking - both holes and cracks. It looks like maybe it's been repaired with fiberglass at some point in the past. I'm not sure how best to get started on repairing it further and advice is welcome!!

 

[Benson Gray]

Welcome and congratulations, the Old Town canoe with serial number 133761 is an 18 foot long, CS (common sense or middle) grade, Guide model with open spruce gunwales, ash decks, ash thwarts, ash seats, a keel, and number eight canvas,. It was built between October and December, 1941. The original exterior paint color was dark green. It shipped on March 30th, 1942 to Detroit, Michigan. A scan of this build record can be found below.

This scan and several hundred thousand more were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will donate, join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See https://www.woodencanoe.org/about to learn more about the WCHA and https://www.woodencanoe.org/shop to donate or join.

It is possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match the canoe. The 1942 catalog at https://www.woodencanoe.org/_files/ugd/537308_8101f094d8c44a57aed153063a77357a.pdf has more details on page nine. Silver tape or paint can temporarily help with most minor leaks. A full restoration will require removing the fiberglass and replacing the canvas. One of the restorers listed at https://www.woodencanoe.org/builders-suppliers can help with that project. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions. Good luck with the project,

Benson

 

[Todd F]

Mac, post some pics. Folks will certainly give thoughts and advice. Always good to see another canoe.

 

[macdouga]

Here're some pics of the canoe highlighting the problems. My sense is that it is structurally sound, but needs some bandaids in the short term, and maybe serious love and care in the long. I'd love to get your perspective on how to get it in the water! I made a paddle for my wife (pic attached) and we want to try it out.

 

[MGC]

Hi,
Your canoe was indeed glassed at some point, and apparently, not very well.
Many of us on this forum are not in favor of replacing the original canvas with glass. When we encounter this, we will remove it as a first step in a restoration. What you do is entirely up to you. If the weight of the canoe (they are heavier when glassed) is not a showstopper for you, you could most definitely sort out the leaks well enough to use it more or less as is.
It looks like someone has painted over the resin so not only are you dealing with a mediocre fiberglass job, you are also dealing with peeling paint or resin.
If you simply want to get into the water, patch those holes with duct tape and go. Do not use anything that has silicon in it to stop leaks, at least not if you plan to try and sort out the glass.
If it were mine and if I were leaving the glass on, I would start by sanding the entire hull with an orbital sander. I would probably be pretty aggressive and try to remove those flaking areas. You do not want to cut into the glass cloth, but you need to remove anything that is loose and oxidized. Once this is done, clean it up (I use acetone) and see what you are dealing with. Small divots like you have shown should be repaired. I would use glass fiber and resin to fill those spots. Areas where there is glass weave showing need to be properly glazed with resin if you want a smooth appearance, but if they don't leak, you can probably live with it.
Once you have the leaks sorted out and the hull smoothed, you may decide to apply a layer of two-part epoxy paint. This should get you a lasting and tough outside finish.
You must be sure that you take care of the wood. It also needs to be sanded and varnished to prevent it from rotting. Several good coats of good quality marine spar varnish will protect the wood. Do not use a urethane varnish.
All of that said, my preference is removing the glass and doing a proper restoration, but that is a time-consuming job and might not be worth trouble. If you get curious about doing a proper restoration, check this site for books that provide step by step instruction and also search this forum for information.
If you made that paddle (cherry?) you should be able to restore the canoe.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Short term, duct tape and go paddle.
Longer term, follow Mike's advice.

 

[macdouga]

Thank you Mike and Dan!! In the short term I'll follow your advice and carefully sand the canoe to see what the situation is. I'll also get it in the water (duct tape, my favorite!!), at least briefly so that we can experience it, and put in the seat replacements unless that's a no-no and should be getting the existing ones restrung somehow. What kind of resin and glass fibers do you recommend for patching the holes? And the same resin for smoothing over where the glass weave is showing? I have some [limited] experience with 2 part epoxy and also spar varnish as I used those to finish the paddle (yes cherry), but I'm not an expert. I fiberglassed the bottom of the paddle to provide additional protection and I found fiberglassing to be really tricky. I made the paddle using hand tools though - planes and spoke shaves and elbow grease, which was rewarding. I do not have experience with two-stage epoxy paints but it seems like I should return the canoe to its original green if possible. Sanding the wood inside the canoe and using marine spar varnish to seal it will be a pain with all the nooks and crannies and tough to sand with the grain of the wood. suggestions are welcome as I'm sure there are tricks. but for sure it'll be a nice summer project. In the longer term, do the outside coverings need to be removed down to bare wood, and recanvased? it's clear that I am just a steward of this canoe and I want to do the right thing on my watch, or at least do no harm

 

[Worth Gretter]

Sanding the wood inside the canoe and using marine spar varnish to seal it will be a pain with all the nooks and crannies and tough to sand with the grain of the wood.

Mac, an effective approach to the interior is Citristrip and ScotchBrite scrubbers.
And nice job on the paddle!

 

[MGC]

seat replacements unless that's a no-no and should be getting the existing ones restrung somehow.

The canoe should be repaired for use and replacing the seats is perfectly acceptable. If I am working on a newer Old Town, I often use replacements seats from Essex Industires rather than make or repair what is there. https://essexindustries.org/

What kind of resin and glass fibers do you recommend for patching the holes? And the same resin for smoothing over where the glass weave is showing? I do not have experience with two-stage epoxy paints but it seems like I should return the canoe to its original green if possible.

I would not try to get too exotic. My guess is a can of resin and a tube of harder from AutoZone will be perfectly adequate. Or, if you are flush with cash, head to West Marine. They will have all of the available options in stock including the paint.

Sanding the wood inside the canoe and using marine spar varnish to seal it will be a pain with all the nooks and crannies and tough to sand with the grain of the wood.

If you own a wooden canoe, sanding and carpals tunnel are your legacy. You must hand sand every nook and cranny to get the new varnish to grab. I prefer to strip a canoe to bare wood when I canvas it (if it needs it) and then clean/bleach the wood before applying thinned varnish and then many layers of varnish. Tricks? Lots of sanding gadgets out there. I like the little round flapping wheels you can attach to a drill but an orbital palm sander is a go to. I have worn out 4 or 5 of them in the last 20 years. Wooden blocks, foam sanding blocks, corner sanders, you will try them all. DO NOT strip the canoe with the glass on! If you are going to use a wood stripper, remove the fiberglass first. For now, settle for sanding to prep.

In the longer term, do the outside coverings need to be removed down to bare wood, and recanvased?

It depends. From a collectors perspective, 18 foot canoes tend to be less desirable than 16 foot canoes. Old Towns, synonymous with wood and canvas canoes, are also the most commonly available and are even still available new. Your canoe has been glassed and consequently, if you want to restore it, it needs a good deal of work. Your choices are to use it as it is and not sweat the flaws, restore it and in doing so, decide how original and perfect you want it to be, or fix it up enough to use and then buy another one that is in better shape.... for the cost of a restoration, you can buy decent wood and canvas canoes that is ready to paddle. Shop around. You will be amazed at the choices you have. I would lean toward that. I tend to avoid glass removal except on very interesting (to me) canoes.
With your apparent wood-working skills, you have all of the options. and as you have already identified, working with glass and resin is a PITA.
Good luck.

 

[Dave Osborn]

I’ve had duct tape come loose in the water.
Get GORILLA TAPE

 

[MGC]

I have heard the same thing. Duck tape has been suggested. I think I have carried duct tape for at least 50 years and used it only once, on a tarp, not on a canoe. I have used Ambroid and luckily, the hatchet I dropped through the bottom of an aluminum canoe happened when I was returning it to the person I borrowed it from. That was creatively repaired with a Coke can. That is a story for gimlets or barrelproof..

 

[macdouga]

You might think that with me doubling the weight of the canoe with gorilla tape, the canoe wouldn't leak, but you'd have been wrong. Life being what it is, I missed one. Once I got that solved, my wife had her first experience with her new paddle, and my son caught his first fish. I'll now get going on the sanding and refurbishing. I'm sure I'll come back to you with questions. I threw my block sander onto the interior with 120 grit, and it barely touched it - the sealant that's on the interior wood is hard as nails. I'm driving my son to Temagami in N Ont today where he'll start his 3.5 week canoe trip, which includes five days on James Bay. Moose, bears, and lots of portages and rapids.

 

[MGC]

If your sander with 120 is not touching the "varnish" inside your canoe, then it is probably (almost certainly) not covered with what it should be. Spar varnish generally sands pretty easily. Someone probably used a urethane on it. Urethane and fiberglass are a deadly combination on a wooden canoe, at least it has been on those I have worked on. Moisture seems to get trapped and the wood cups and rots. That more or less seals the deal for you. You will need to strip the inside to get down to bare wood. And, as was noted, you should not strip a canoe while it is glass or canvas covered.
Again, use it (as you are) and plan your steps as you go. If you are good about drying the boat out after you use it, it should last for many years as is.

 

[macdouga]

Hi Everyone - I have a need for more insights if you're willing. The keel seems to be in reasonable shape other than a split, which I've highlighted in a pic. Should I epoxy the entire keel and fill the crack at the same time, or maybe fiberglass the keel at the area with the crack. I can fill with wood glue and clamp it back together too I guess, however I don't really think that'll help. Perhaps lots of coats of marine spar varnish? There's also rot to a couple of places on the gunwale (see pics). The ribs look okay for the most part, but there's some evidence that fungi have been busy there too. Clean everything down to good wood as possible, then marine spar varnish? Then the final problem is that there's some cracking of the flooring under the ribs (not sure what that's called), which again I've highlighted for you in the pics. No idea what to do with the splitting. Water and wood - not easy bedfellows it seems. Sanding the ribs etc doesn't work well - the prior sealant is gummy and clogs the sandpaper, and even with 60 grit, doesn't come off efficiently. What works for me is scraping with a carbide scraper, then sanding the wood. I don't have my tools here (yet) but what I think will work for the flooring beneath the ribs is a curved card scraper. but the nails and rot and splitting is going to make it challenging (and fun). scraping/sanding the ribs/flooring under the deck area at the stem and stern seems like a recipe for a sore back - crazy to hang the canoe vertically to get a better angle at it? Many thanks in advance, Ormond

 

[macdouga]

And to make sure we're on the same page for repairing the hull. I've aggressively sanded down the prior paint that was flaking, and roughened the entire surface. I'll use fiberglass and epoxy to seal the [many] holes, then sand it smooth(ish). then I'll put a coat of epoxy over the entire hull, then cover with Jade Green topside paint and maybe the link below will work. The bottom of the gunwale adjacent to the hull will get a coat or two of marine spar varnish as part of the process. Sound okay?

Sites-WestMarine-Site

West Marine

www.westmarine.com

 

[MGC]

A few thoughts and there are always many other options for how to proceed.
The keel.... I would not use a wood glue on it. I would pack in G-Flex (thickened) and then varnish it since you have already removed the finish from it.
Damaged planking....that is what you often see when one of these old hulls is covered with glass. Water sits in there, and the planking cups. Without removing the covering, there is no elegant repair. Sand it as best you can, and then generously varnish when the time comes. You need to attempt to reseal the wood. If the glass was off, you would replace that bit of planking and probably the two adjacent ribs. To my eye, I see cracks in the rib to the left and the one to the right. There really is no need to repair those now and also no good way unless the glass comes off.
The rotten rails... I generally remove the rails to sand and work on them. That is the only way I have found to completely varnish them. While I had them off I would splice in fresh wood in those rotted spots. Git-Rot is an alternative choice. It is not a substitute for a proper repair, but it might help to firm up the punky wood.
I'm not sure what your plan to cover (with epoxy) and then paint the hull is achieving except for an extra step. Fill the voids and smooth them out and then paint with an epoxy paint that is colorized. It will not be a perfect finish, but it should come out looking pretty good. Just remember, the darker colors made mistakes and imperfections pop. White, or yellow or cream might mask flaws. Red, dark blue, black, these will even show your sanding marks.

 

[macdouga]

very helpful! thanks.

1) I'll pick up some thickened G-flex then varnish the keel.

2) I'll do my best with the planking and will make sure it gets sealed when the time comes

3) I hadn't considered taking the rails off but that's a great idea. there's just the two spots of rot so I'll try the Git-rot - hopefully will just add to the character of the canoe.

4) my goal is to try and restore the canoe to something akin to it's original dark green. I couldn't find a green epoxy paint so my idea was to put a coat of epoxy on, then put the dark green polyurethane on top of that - which I think also provides UV protection to the epoxy. open to other suggestions.

I'm very appreciative of you sharing your experience!!

 

[MGC]

To pack the epoxy into the crack (keel) I would use a syringe.
You can buy packs of throwaway syringes online that come in super handy for odd ball jobs like this.
If you are tempted to use "wood glue anywhere on your boat, I would suggest you only use TB3. It is waterproof. It does not offer the holding power of GFlex, but for many simple woodworking activities, it is relatively affordable and available.

 

[macdouga]

Thanks for the suggestions. At the risk to my day job, I'll get busy on the canoe!!

 

[macdouga]

I know no one else will appreciate this picture except you all on this forum… I’m learning the skills to remove the old sealant, which has the texture of enamel, except when it’s also gummy. It’s a challenge! In addition, I fiberglassed the holes in the hull and put a coat of epoxy over the whole thing to catch the small ones, of which there presumably were many. I’ll leave it to cure for about seven days. By then, I’m sure my back will be begging me to spend my free time doing something other than working inside the canoe, so I’ll turn my attention back to the hull. Suggestions are welcome, as are any tricks that you've learned. One of my brother’s classmates started Bearwood Canoe Company in the Muskokas of Ontario. I looked up their Sequin 16, which comes in at just 60 pounds, which made me question the wisdom of refurbishing this 18-foot Old Town, aside from the satisfaction and historical value. I don’t have a weight on the Old Town, but it’s a heck of a lot more than 60 lbs.